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  1. #61
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    You're fond of telling me I'm repeating myself - and I was. But you're also fond of repeatedly making blank statements without any reasoning to support them - like insisting it's a major dps loss for spriests to plan their burst ahead. I've given a scenario, you agree it's likely the best they can do. I claim it's one GCD less than perfect rotational dps. You claim it's a major dps loss. Please elaborate on that statement.
    Went on my spriest and checked, apparently i correctly remember how orbs scaled with DP, so yes in best case scenario its just a gcd loss. My bad


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    We are talking about a theoretical scenario. Else we'd just go case-by-case over every encounter where it's wanted/needed that we hoard burst. I suppose that would be a way of approaching it as well, but IMO a maximum negative impact scenario is better to take as basis. Where overall dps matters very much and 10-20 second burst requirements are high enough to warrant every range dps hoarding everything possible for it. Gear level assumed t be just barely sufficient. Overgearing encounters obviously reduces the need to pool resources for everyone, pointless to consider. Suggestions welcome of course.
    Give me a specific theoretical worst case scenario, and we'll see how i'd handle it and how much of a dps loss it would be. Also you have to consider that after the first time you'd know how the fight was going to work and could just start the fight differently resulting you to be (more or less) in the right eclipse at the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Perhaps I can't seem to find it because I've quoted all you've ever said about warlocks in this thread are exactly those 2 lines in my previous post. Repeatedly asking for my reading comprehension of a non-existent text will not produce results.
    First page last post. Go check and read it.
    But hey, heres a link Heres a link

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Let me say it again. This is the only thing you've explained about warlocks in this entire thread.
    But let's play with the argument at hand - By your own admission, warlocks play with near max embers all the time. From my experience, they play with 2-3 embers. But your claim is water on my mill - as they play with 3 embers, ALL it costs them to unload them all into a burst target anytime they please with no preparation, no fore warning needed is gear procs. Same as every single other spec in the game. That is hands down an enormous advantage with fuckall drawbacks.
    Am I missing something here?
    A) its not the only thing i've explained about warlocks.
    B) Other classes play their rotation more or less regardless of procs (yes, they do refresh dots and whatnot) but destro warlocks in this case are totally dependant on those procs. Once they proc they unleash all they have, now compare that damage to the case when they dont have those procs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Please... energy not meaningful.. What are you even saying man. That Haste is a completely meaningless stat for all rogue specs, ferals, monks.
    This is exactly the part where I could lay into you with a vengeance, because you did just completely dig a grave for yourself with that statement. But I wont, because it achieves nothing but animosity and derails the discussion. I only bring it up to demonstrate.
    Energy is just regenerating resource pool, it works more or less like gcd for casters. it limits their ability spam (along with normal gcd) Haste just increases how much they can spam those abilities (Like haste increases the casts for caster).
    In short: its really not meaningful resource


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I have had it with you referencing non existent explanations of exactly HOW your statements are backed up. I have spent a good deal of time elaborating on my claims, offering support for them. All you're replying with is saying "it's been explained already". Quote those explanations.
    This has been going on for the past 3-4 posts between us. If you don't provide quotes or explanations yourself, I think we're done here. You'll think me incompetent for not finding them in past 3 pages. I'll think you an obstinate person, unwilling to budge or put any effort into the argument. And that'll be the end of it.
    Destruction warlock one First page last post.
    Spriest one, as said before, i misremembered how DP scaled with orbs - My bad
    Monk one Over here

  2. #62
    Thanks for making a link to your post about warlocks, that I've quoted in my past two responses? o.O

    A) its not the only thing i've explained about warlocks.
    B) Other classes play their rotation more or less regardless of procs (yes, they do refresh dots and whatnot) but destro warlocks in this case are totally dependant on those procs. Once they proc they unleash all they have, now compare that damage to the case when they dont have those procs.

    Aaand you're off again with a blank statement that it's not the only explanation of the claim warlocks lose a significant amount of dps. Since you've gone to the effort of linking your one post about them, I'll assume you've nothing to back this "A)" point with.

    B) I'm not sure about. I see your point, they're playing around the various procs and CBing at an opportune time. CB is ~35% of their singletarget damage, Immolate is ~12%. So in a generous estimation, they can wrap about 50% of their damage around various procs. Significant, to be sure.
    We do ~20% with MF and SF.. and even that we can't always use when procs are up. All other rotation is static, whether procs are up or not.

    If we go deeper into this, we'd have to get an estimation of how powerful those procs are, how frequently they proc and how frequently they're gaining Embers to use CB. Sounds complex, but I believe it's rather simple math to do. I've had enough of spending time on this argument (that wasn't really about the spec mechanics half the time), so I'll let you do the honors. I agree however, simply looking at class mechanics is not sufficient depth to tackle this argument. Because of Destro's enviable interaction with procs vs. our relatively static, it has to be accounted for.


    Meaningful synonyms: significant, relevant, important, consequential. I don't really have words or arguments for this tbh. If you think it's not important, doesn't have consequences, then go ahead. I doubt Blizzard shares your opinion, else he'd do away with it long ago.


    I'm fully aware and have considered the two posts you've linked.
    Let me reply to monks:
    Monks need to stall tigereye brew and chi for max on demand damage
    That is not an explanation. That is a statement revealing nothing.
    Since you've not offered ANY other explanation about either warlocks or monks other than the 2 lines on the first page that have been quoted and linked to death, how about this - you decide whether you want to continue arguing about monks.

  3. #63
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Thanks for making a link to your post about warlocks, that I've quoted in my past two responses? o.O
    My bad for not actually readin the whole quote through, thought it was just a single post quote by checking it really fast and when you didnt seem to get the point from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Aaand you're off again with a blank statement that it's not the only explanation of the claim warlocks lose a significant amount of dps. Since you've gone to the effort of linking your one post about them, I'll assume you've nothing to back this "A)" point with.
    Theres two different posts explaining what issues warlocks have about stalling. My wording could've been better (thing -> post)


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    B) I'm not sure about. I see your point, they're playing around the various procs and CBing at an opportune time. CB is ~35% of their singletarget damage, Immolate is ~12%. So in a generous estimation, they can wrap about 50% of their damage around various procs. Significant, to be sure.
    We do ~20% with MF and SF.. and even that we can't always use when procs are up. All other rotation is static, whether procs are up or not.
    Its pretty clear. Destro locks whole "rotation" is based on those procs, other classes and specially moonkins dont have it to that extend

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    If we go deeper into this, we'd have to get an estimation of how powerful those procs are, how frequently they proc and how frequently they're gaining Embers to use CB. Sounds complex, but I believe it's rather simple math to do. I've had enough of spending time on this argument (that wasn't really about the spec mechanics half the time), so I'll let you do the honors. I agree however, simply looking at class mechanics is not sufficient depth to tackle this argument. Because of Destro's enviable interaction with procs vs. our relatively static, it has to be accounted for.
    Chaos bolt: Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing [2488 ( + 258.75% of Spell power) * (1.24)] Shadow damage.
    Warlock nonbuffed sp = 42k
    Trinket proc = 15k int (15k sp)
    Trinket proc warlock = 42k+15k = 57k sp
    nonbuffed chaos bolt: 2488 +( 2.5875*42000) * 1.24 = 137245 dmg
    Trinket proc chaos bolt: 2488 + (2.5875*57000) * 1.24 = 185372.5 dmg

    that is quite significant difference and its just with one trinket proc. Random is random but thats how the game works

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Meaningful synonyms: significant, relevant, important, consequential. I don't really have words or arguments for this tbh. If you think it's not important, doesn't have consequences, then go ahead. I doubt Blizzard shares your opinion, else he'd do away with it long ago.
    Energy is needed, so is mana. So if you think it like that then sure they're both meaningful. But in the end you have to pay very little attention either of them in pve.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I'm fully aware and have considered the two posts you've linked.
    Let me reply to monks:
    That is not an explanation. That is a statement revealing nothing.
    Since you've not offered ANY other explanation about either warlocks or monks other than the 2 lines on the first page that have been quoted and linked to death, how about this - you decide whether you want to continue arguing about monks.
    It explains what they need to stall for max on demand damage, no one asked the reasoning for it (assumably because they understood that themselves).

    I can argue about monks if you want. I've got no problem with that, if you think its relevant for moonkins so called "problems" with stalling then go ahead.


    edit: Oh, and i'd still like to get detailed "worst case scenario" for moonkins, as thats what this thread is all really about. We'll see how "bad" that case is really going to be
    Last edited by lappee; 2014-04-13 at 05:56 PM.

  4. #64
    Kardris' trinket & Bindings proc 13274 intellect. First procs roughly once a minute, the latter once every 2 minutes. But that amount of int gives a bit more spellpower, and they can use Jade Spirit, Synapse Springs, Lightweave, 4piece,.. That's basically assuming they're casting every CB with one of the major procs up.

    So, I'd say 15k estimation is on the very high (unrealistic even) end, but lets work with it, because it gives us an absolutely worst case scenario of how much destros lose by having to blow embers without those procs.

    Based on that math, using 4 Embers for 4 CB's in a burst requirement without any procs up would thus cost them just under 200k damage done.



    OK, let me go into monks a bit. I think they're relevant because they're newest dps spec in the game and thus reflect all of blizzards gathered knowledge and experience with other 10 classes gathered over the years. WW design is continuing and building on the resource-based dps system and so (I believe) indicates the new blizzard paradigm of dps.
    They have total capacity of 20 stacks of Tigereye brew - the "size of their pool". When they use them, they can only use up to 10 of them at once. They refill the pool by executing their normal rotation = spending Chi. At no point will they want to be at 20 stacks AND use a Chi finisher. Assuming good playing and forewarning, they can be at 20 stacks, with full Chi and near-full energy.

    At that point, they can use it first. 10 stacks consumed for 60% increased damage&healing for 15 seconds. After that, they have another 10 stacks for another maximum power 15 seconds. After that, they'd have a less powerful (depends on mastery) buff for another 15 seconds.

    It doesn't really matter if we consider just the first 15 seconds, or full 30 seconds. The first is an "average" burst timeframe, as I imagine it. The second is more than it's usually considered to still be "burst". I don't think any class can maintain a 30 second burst without major cooldowns. Even then, most have a lesser duration.

    By those mechanics, they lose no dps outside of their procs, like destros. I'll admit, they're also likely basing their Tigereye brews around procs, so that's something to consider. But with a fixed 15 second duration, it's a lot less potent than destros.


    I've now given my interpretation and explanation why I don't think monks need to stall. I think they can pool resources incredibly well, for an exceedingly long duration while not sacrificing any overall dps.


    edit: Oh, and i'd still like to get detailed "worst case scenario" for moonkins, as thats what this thread is all really about. We'll see how "bad" that case is really going to be
    I have.. a while back.. let me quote it. Not sure if you missed it or didn't think it detailed enough.
    With eclipse system, with current gear, what would you say the max amount of waiting would be.. about 30 seconds in worst case scenario? One cast away from Lunar, but the burst is coming in, say, 25 seconds. Just enough to not be able to hope to make it to lunar in time. During those 25 seconds, not only will we not be in eclipse, we will not have NG and we will not be able to use SS.
    30 seconds may be an overestimation, I'll admit. 25 could still be a feasible scenario though, do you agree?
    I think, for arguments sake, we should consider stalling outside Solar eclipse? In interest of making it a worst case scenario - we only just found out when the burst is needed and we can't delay our last eclipse to mitigate dps loss by waiting on it with Lunar.

  5. #65
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Kardris' trinket & Bindings proc 13274 intellect. First procs roughly once a minute, the latter once every 2 minutes. But that amount of int gives a bit more spellpower, and they can use Jade Spirit, Synapse Springs, Lightweave, 4piece,.. That's basically assuming they're casting every CB with one of the major procs up.

    So, I'd say 15k estimation is on the very high (unrealistic even) end, but lets work with it, because it gives us an absolutely worst case scenario of how much destros lose by having to blow embers without those procs.

    Based on that math, using 4 Embers for 4 CB's in a burst requirement without any procs up would thus cost them just under 200k damage done.
    15k is from one trinket only, based on HCWF trinkets (as is the warlocks SP based on HCWF gear)
    In ideal situation they'd use the burst when both trinkets etc are up. Jadefire spirit is nearly always up so it doesnt ~really~ matter. I've no idea how warlocks play with synapse springs, but i'd imagine its a dps loss not to use it on cd (as its such a short cd)

    so 15k is realistic, in worst case scenario they'd be missing nearly 40k intellect. Also i used 1int = 1sp ratio and did not account the crit from int.
    so that 200k is not even close to being the worst case scenario. Its more or less the average (i suppose?).



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    OK, let me go into monks a bit. I think they're relevant because they're newest dps spec in the game and thus reflect all of blizzards gathered knowledge and experience with other 10 classes gathered over the years. WW design is continuing and building on the resource-based dps system and so (I believe) indicates the new blizzard paradigm of dps.
    They have total capacity of 20 stacks of Tigereye brew - the "size of their pool". When they use them, they can only use up to 10 of them at once. They refill the pool by executing their normal rotation = spending Chi. At no point will they want to be at 20 stacks AND use a Chi finisher. Assuming good playing and forewarning, they can be at 20 stacks, with full Chi and near-full energy.

    At that point, they can use it first. 10 stacks consumed for 60% increased damage&healing for 15 seconds. After that, they have another 10 stacks for another maximum power 15 seconds. After that, they'd have a less powerful (depends on mastery) buff for another 15 seconds.

    It doesn't really matter if we consider just the first 15 seconds, or full 30 seconds. The first is an "average" burst timeframe, as I imagine it. The second is more than it's usually considered to still be "burst". I don't think any class can maintain a 30 second burst without major cooldowns. Even then, most have a lesser duration.

    By those mechanics, they lose no dps outside of their procs, like destros. I'll admit, they're also likely basing their Tigereye brews around procs, so that's something to consider. But with a fixed 15 second duration, it's a lot less potent than destros.
    First, i believe that blizzard is having hard time making new classes without copying the existing ones.
    Second, we never specified a set time for the "burst". which is why i used "max on demand damage" phrase.

    for max on demand damage, monks need to be at 20 stacks (obviously losing dps if they get over that limit) and at max chi (again, obviously losing dps if they go over that) and to have the hard hitting abilities ready.

    But then again, with the gear level monks have atm they have near 90% uptime on tigereye brew (obviously cant be 100% since stacks are cleared when entering boss combat) so the whole ability can just be excluded.

    that leaves Chi capping and hard hitting ability stalling.
    Chi capping is easy to do, as monks dont have finisher abilities (like rogues) that would eat the whole pool of Chi. So we're left with abilities which i guess are just Rising sun kick (8sec cd) and fists of fury (25sec cd)

    Conclusion: Monks lose very little (if at all) dps, but they dont have any "burst" either. So its useless to compare moonkins etc who are capable of bursting

    Edit: Gotta retract the tigereye brew uptime (was checking the wrong spell apparently, i knew there was something shady about it)
    so its closer to 50-65% uptime, which means that monks need to save up brew stacks for the burst properly and using those stacks without cd's is a dps loss (similar to destro locks) Also timings play a "big" part on that, as well as the duration of the required "burst"

    So a new conclusion. Monks lose dps as well with their mechanics, its most likely less than other classes but they dont have real burst either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I've now given my interpretation and explanation why I don't think monks need to stall. I think they can pool resources incredibly well, for an exceedingly long duration while not sacrificing any overall dps.
    Yup, thats true. Didnt think monks would have that high uptime on tigereye brew but apparently they do. But you have to consider that they dont have any burst either. So they're really bad for a fight that needs bursting.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I have.. a while back.. let me quote it. Not sure if you missed it or didn't think it detailed enough.

    30 seconds may be an overestimation, I'll admit. 25 could still be a feasible scenario though, do you agree?
    I think, for arguments sake, we should consider stalling outside Solar eclipse? In interest of making it a worst case scenario - we only just found out when the burst is needed and we can't delay our last eclipse to mitigate dps loss by waiting on it with Lunar.
    Its not even close to detailed enough. Burst phases come by timers, or by boss percentages (or have i forgotten some sexy mechanic?) Both of which can be predicted long before. But lets go with that, so we've just exited solar eclipse(?) and theres 25seconds on the clock for the needed burst?
    What about how long is the burst going to be?
    Is there movement?
    Is there previous adds (multidotting?)
    Why wouldnt there be NG left?
    Why couldnt i use starsurges?.

    Also if ya want to check worst case scenarios for each class. For example think about spriests when they have no idea when the burst is needed (random timer on add), They'd have to wait with full orb stacks all the time.
    Last edited by lappee; 2014-04-14 at 05:02 PM.

  6. #66
    I was just randomly reading this thread and just wanted to correct you guys about monks real quick :
    But then again, with the gear level monks have atm they have near 90% uptime on tigereye brew (obviously cant be 100% since stacks are cleared when entering boss combat) so the whole ability can just be excluded.
    It's more between 55-65%. And about the discussion, if we're talking about an add that NEEDS TO DIE ASAP then yeah, monks aren't really powerful. However, if there is a situation where an add spawns and it lasts for 10-15secs monks will be really good especially comparing to people that aren't using 2-3mn CDs (like Moonkin Inc/CA).
    Also monks don't lose much on pooling stacks for a switch that is coming : even though they use the same "dump system" as Destro locks (using TEB stacks when trinkets proc), the dps loss won't be as bad.

    That was just me jumping in there real quick, you can go on with your discussion (which I actually find interesting even though I don't play Moonkin that much).
    Scrymx (Feral - Current Alt) / Scryms (Monk - Main) - The Fallen @EU-Ysondre 14/14HC
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  7. #67
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scryms View Post
    I was just randomly reading this thread and just wanted to correct you guys about monks real quick :

    It's more between 55-65%. And about the discussion, if we're talking about an add that NEEDS TO DIE ASAP then yeah, monks aren't really powerful. However, if there is a situation where an add spawns and it lasts for 10-15secs monks will be really good especially comparing to people that aren't using 2-3mn CDs (like Moonkin Inc/CA).
    Also monks don't lose much on pooling stacks for a switch that is coming : even though they use the same "dump system" as Destro locks (using TEB stacks when trinkets proc), the dps loss won't be as bad.

    That was just me jumping in there real quick, you can go on with your discussion (which I actually find interesting even though I don't play Moonkin that much).
    thats my bad then, i just quickly checked world of logs top parse on Iron Juggernaut (which to me is the best single target dps boss in SoO) and he has nearly 90% uptime.

    Moonkins for example can pool double starfalls + lunar eclipse for fast burst, which is quite alot stronger than non-eclipsed / solar eclipse nuke.

    Edit: checked more top parses and the uptime seems to be on 80-90%. No idea where your 55-65% comes from (as i dont play a monk with SoO hc gear)
    Edit2: Apparently i was checking the stacks uptime instead of the dmg buff uptime. Seems that the uptime is closer to what you said
    Last edited by lappee; 2014-04-14 at 05:04 PM.

  8. #68
    You have to look for this spell on WoL. The uptime is generally 55 to 65% on single target. But yea you got my point.
    Scrymx (Feral - Current Alt) / Scryms (Monk - Main) - The Fallen @EU-Ysondre 14/14HC
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  9. #69
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scryms View Post
    You have to look for this spell on WoL. The uptime is generally 55 to 65% on single target. But yea you got my point.
    Yeah, i noticed the mistake when i took a closer look. Just quickly checked the first "tigereye brew" line

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