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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    This and the fact that hybrid tax (as we knew it in TBC) was supposed to have died a long time ago.
    Hybrid Tax never went away. They specifically didn't comment on it (until now) because they knew how it would upset casual Johnnys that they don't do damage of this op lock/mage/rogue they saw in lfr and it's totally this stinky tax thingy, not that Johny can't keep up 50% dot uptime on targets. Anyone that thinks they can bring pure dps numbers AND have great raid utility AND have a perk of being able to spec healer/tank was delusional, guilds would just bench all pures, fill it with hybrids and with amount of offhealing they do, drop more healers for even more hybrids.

    That's why they remove your (and hopefully all other too) hybrids utility, rebalance other class raid utility, even add raid cd to mages, so that they can really tune you all with same dps AND same group utility. If all you wanted in your limited-spec lifetime was just to dps and not help others, WoD will be your time to shine, for others who strived for being able to help with more than pure recount numbers it sucks though.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Didn't US first 25m Heroic Klaxxi kill have like 2 or 3 shadow priest?
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    I could link you raidbots, all parses and the same fight, the data would be different, putting rets ahead of SP... Which would mean SP is weaker than rets? BTW, I love how you use one of the only 2 percentiles where SP are ahead of Rets... great job.
    Can you please go back to your forum? You are being a dense, very dense, person...
    Jug is the patcthwerk fight this tier. You can't cheese the fight to pad meters. It is the most relevant fight this tier when talking about pure single target dps.

    How is it exactly I get so much hate for proving that shadow priest are not the worst single target dps class? I've basically given you all the proof and evidence. It's like not even up for debate anymore. Sure, shadow is meh BUT IT'S NOT THE WORST.

    Out of all the shadow priest and ret paladins who logged on 25 man H Jugg. The best shadow priest beat the best ret pally. They are both obviously know there class very well. possibly even better than 99.99% other shadow priest and ret pallys.

    Graysonn (top ranked ret pally) is 580 item level is BiS (or pretty close too) gear.
    Scripe (top ranked shadow priest) is 578 item level.

    Scripe( 2 item levels under Graysonn) was still able to do more single target dps than the ret pally. Or ANY ret pally who has ever logged for that matter.

    Like Honestly, what more proof do you need.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    Hybrid Tax never went away. They specifically didn't comment on it (until now) because they knew how it would upset casual Johnnys that they don't do damage of this op lock/mage/rogue they saw in lfr and it's totally this stinky tax thingy, not that Johny can't keep up 50% dot uptime on targets. Anyone that thinks they can bring pure dps numbers AND have great raid utility AND have a perk of being able to spec healer/tank was delusional, guilds would just bench all pures, fill it with hybrids and with amount of offhealing they do, drop more healers for even more hybrids.

    That's why they remove your (and hopefully all other too) hybrids utility, rebalance other class raid utility, even add raid cd to mages, so that they can really tune you all with same dps AND same group utility. If all you wanted in your limited-spec lifetime was just to dps and not help others, WoD will be your time to shine, for others who strived for being able to help with more than pure recount numbers it sucks though.
    I can see the thought process behind it but its rather strange a spec like Discipline is allowed to be the best healer and still also do damage, don't you think? Or how Warlock gets these ridiculous shields allowing them to cheese mechanics? If we were just allowed to put off our T90 healing component this would make certain fights not much harder for the healers. It'd remove a random factor for them, too.

    Shadow did good off healing and good if not best damage in a good part of Cataclysm. The hybrid tax was temporary exempt. Even on MoP Beta I remember Shadow being good. We just scaled very bad with gear. When it came to scaling the worst "best DPS spec" (= ignoring MM when SV is better, which makes sense since we cannot use our off spec to do more damage) from what I remember in 5.0 and I remember discussing that with Yva. MSV was still mostly alright but with HoF the shit hit the fan. Single target + movement killed us there.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I can see the thought process behind it but its rather strange a spec like Discipline is allowed to be the best healer and still also do damage, don't you think? Or how Warlock gets these ridiculous shields allowing them to cheese mechanics?
    I would say it's their fault for not being able to balance that in time. They did say Disc was bringing too much healing and dps with atonement and they are reavaluating that in WoD. Warlock shield thingy isn't actually op at all for affli and demo, it's pretty weak actually. That tier really is balanced unless you are Destro when suddenly it's best thing ever, they did right thing adding cap to shield, though I'm unsure why they added Shadowburn to work with it later, possibly should have lower coefficient for the spec. But it's fun wiping on Thok bats and be last to die by spamming SB. And tbh Mage temporal shield gets pretty broken too on few encounters.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    Hybrid Tax never went away. They specifically didn't comment on it (until now) because they knew how it would upset casual Johnnys that they don't do damage of this op lock/mage/rogue they saw in lfr and it's totally this stinky tax thingy, not that Johny can't keep up 50% dot uptime on targets. Anyone that thinks they can bring pure dps numbers AND have great raid utility AND have a perk of being able to spec healer/tank was delusional, guilds would just bench all pures, fill it with hybrids and with amount of offhealing they do, drop more healers for even more hybrids.

    That's why they remove your (and hopefully all other too) hybrids utility, rebalance other class raid utility, even add raid cd to mages, so that they can really tune you all with same dps AND same group utility. If all you wanted in your limited-spec lifetime was just to dps and not help others, WoD will be your time to shine, for others who strived for being able to help with more than pure recount numbers it sucks though.
    "Limited spec lifetime", what are you on about? I've been playing as Shadow spec since the end of Vanilla.

    Also, do not tell me what it is I do or do not want out of the game. In TBC we had unique & powerful utility. For many SP's, myself included, helping "with more than pure recount numbers" was what defined us. We were irreplaceable in a raid group. You're the one who's delusional if you think that hybrids in MoP are in anyway comparable to hybrids in e.g. TBC.

    They dispensed with that with "bring the player not the class" and since then all classes have brought utility of one sort or another. The argument is how to balance utility against dps / healing output. In this ex-pac many think they got the balance wrong.

    Also, do not assume casual = bad. It's insulting and naive.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    In TBC we had unique & powerful utility. For many SP's, myself included, helping "with more than pure recount numbers" was what defined us. We were irreplaceable in a raid group.
    I think that definition is gone in WoD. Class homogenization, I must welcome thee.

    They dispensed with that with "bring the player not the class" and since then all classes have brought utility of one sort or another. The argument is how to balance utility against dps / healing output. In this ex-pac many think they got the balance wrong.
    Right now our utility doesn't compensate for our lack of damage, back then it did. That is the difference.

    If we would go in depth on Shadow utility you would find we lost some unique utility (remember Dispersion on Baleroc and Madness of Deathwing? Not only our trait anymore). We're not even a reliable soaker on a fight like Klaxxi because of the CD on Dispersion. We used to have a glyph for that which made the cooldown 75 seconds instead of 120 seconds. Its gone.

    Our off healing is decent on Norushen, Galakras, and Thok but again I would give Thok more weight than the early fights.

    Leap of Faith, Void Shift, Void Tendrils, Spectral Guise is all things a Discipline can do as well and you take them already to your raid. Mass Dispel same, but its expensive on their mana, so as I've said before this warrants Shadow potentially a raid spot on Thok. Vampiric Embrace? Need to combine it with turret + orbs. Ancestral Guidance + Healing Tide Totem are better IMO. I guess the Silence effect from Silence counts somehow, but that is rather minor. Dispersion like I said, Mages have Greater Invisibility, and Cauterize.

    Nothing of this utility comes close to the uniqueness of mana battery. Or my Dispersion examples. Or passive Vampiric Embrace.

    If we are middle of the pack and don't bring anything to the table we're still screwed. Even Mages will bring Ring of Frost and Amplify Magic; two utilities.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  8. #88
    lol, affliction cheesing every fight in SoO right now, and people really take these logs seriously? please l2p and do your job as a hybrid. I didn't saw any aff locks on progression, why's that? it's because it sucks for anything other than cheese with tricks and "bl and burn boss gg"
    Last edited by Zharradan; 2014-04-19 at 11:27 AM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Right now our utility doesn't compensate for our lack of damage, back then it did. That is the difference.
    Yes, and this is exactly the point.

    Whether class homogenization is a good thing, though, is another debate. I seriously loved our uniqueness in TBC. Other casters fought to have me in their group for the regen benefits of VT & VE. When was the last time a group within your raid fought to have you in it? lol

    But, that's the way Blizz took the game and there's no going back to the way it was. In which case, they need to do a much better job at balancing.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Jug is the patcthwerk fight this tier. You can't cheese the fight to pad meters. It is the most relevant fight this tier when talking about pure single target dps.

    How is it exactly I get so much hate for proving that shadow priest are not the worst single target dps class? I've basically given you all the proof and evidence. It's like not even up for debate anymore. Sure, shadow is meh BUT IT'S NOT THE WORST.

    Out of all the shadow priest and ret paladins who logged on 25 man H Jugg. The best shadow priest beat the best ret pally. They are both obviously know there class very well. possibly even better than 99.99% other shadow priest and ret pallys.

    Graysonn (top ranked ret pally) is 580 item level is BiS (or pretty close too) gear.
    Scripe (top ranked shadow priest) is 578 item level.

    Scripe( 2 item levels under Graysonn) was still able to do more single target dps than the ret pally. Or ANY ret pally who has ever logged for that matter.

    Like Honestly, what more proof do you need.
    Because RNG? You are comparing two parses to say one class does more dps than another... Even if they are the top of WoL that doesn't mean they had RNG at "maximum peak"(lol idiotic term, but close enough). So, is your argument still valid?:O

    Ofc it must be, don't bother replying.
    I'm not saying Rets are better than SP, or defending anything of the sort. But in your mind, SP aren't deserving of a buff, because they are in competition for who is the worse spec/class with another spec.. I mean srsly...? And if that's not your goal, what are you doing? I really don't see your motives, are you just here to be a pain?

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I think that definition is gone in WoD. Class homogenization, I must welcome thee.

    Right now our utility doesn't compensate for our lack of damage, back then it did. That is the difference.

    If we would go in depth on Shadow utility you would find we lost some unique utility (remember Dispersion on Baleroc and Madness of Deathwing? Not only our trait anymore). We're not even a reliable soaker on a fight like Klaxxi because of the CD on Dispersion. We used to have a glyph for that which made the cooldown 75 seconds instead of 120 seconds. Its gone.

    Our off healing is decent on Norushen, Galakras, and Thok but again I would give Thok more weight than the early fights.

    Leap of Faith, Void Shift, Void Tendrils, Spectral Guise is all things a Discipline can do as well and you take them already to your raid. Mass Dispel same, but its expensive on their mana, so as I've said before this warrants Shadow potentially a raid spot on Thok. Vampiric Embrace? Need to combine it with turret + orbs. Ancestral Guidance + Healing Tide Totem are better IMO. I guess the Silence effect from Silence counts somehow, but that is rather minor. Dispersion like I said, Mages have Greater Invisibility, and Cauterize.

    Nothing of this utility comes close to the uniqueness of mana battery. Or my Dispersion examples. Or passive Vampiric Embrace.

    If we are middle of the pack and don't bring anything to the table we're still screwed. Even Mages will bring Ring of Frost and Amplify Magic; two utilities.
    How can you possibly say that rof is a decent raid CD? I've used it once and that was a year ago (can't remember the fight, but there we're adds hitting like crazy).

  12. #92
    From what people told me yesterday shadow is very lack luster in pvp and pve! So /shrug
    its just not their time, i guess, which is a good thing considering how OP they used to be back in the day

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Hallonsaft4 View Post
    How can you possibly say that rof is a decent raid CD? I've used it once and that was a year ago (can't remember the fight, but there we're adds hitting like crazy).
    I wrote this:

    [...] Even Mages will bring Ring of Frost and Amplify Magic; two utilities.
    I was talking about utility, not raid CDs. I would not call RoF a raid CD because raid CDs affect all raid members directly, such as Rallying Cry or Vampiric Embrace. RoF is a utility spell. RoF has seen its uses throughout the expansion (previous as well!). I remember it being used on Will of the Emperor to chain CC the trash, and Siegecrafter Blackfuse on the mines as well as used in various Challenge Mode dungeons. Don't take my word for it though, take Method's word for it. They used RoF on Siegecrafter as well (before I did, to be fair) and you can see that in one of their interviews where they went in depth about Siegecrafter. I'm talking about the 25 man versions of the fight; I don't care much about 10 man its a different league and game and I don't play that one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    Because RNG? You are comparing two parses to say one class does more dps than another... Even if they are the top of WoL that doesn't mean they had RNG at "maximum peak"(lol idiotic term, but close enough). So, is your argument still valid?:O

    Ofc it must be, don't bother replying.
    I'm not saying Rets are better than SP, or defending anything of the sort. But in your mind, SP aren't deserving of a buff, because they are in competition for who is the worse spec/class with another spec.. I mean srsly...? And if that's not your goal, what are you doing? I really don't see your motives, are you just here to be a pain?
    Yeah lets grab the top 0,1% (or even less) parses of a RNG spec (Ret with 4set) and compare that with the top parse of another RNG spec (Shadow with DI) and then at that one time where the stars were best aligned Shadow was better. This is not how you read statistics. People like this should do something else than compare the outliers in a statistic with each other but I stopped taking this specimen serious when he wanted me to take Demonology's parses into a comparison with Shadow because "Warlock can play Demonology as a spec". To respond to that utterly ridiculous viewpoint we should just link him Simcraft parses of how good we do when we spec into Power Infusion and Mindbender because "we can spec into that" as well.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  14. #94
    this list means almost nothing because 60th percentile players generally speaking are either undergeared or don't know how to play their spec. look at 90th percentile and you get a much better idea of where a spec really lies. idk where shadow is for that, im assuming it's not great since they are kinda shit but it doesn't matter since the 2 categories of dps atm are "warlocks" and "everybody else."

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Yes, and this is exactly the point.

    Whether class homogenization is a good thing, though, is another debate. I seriously loved our uniqueness in TBC. Other casters fought to have me in their group for the regen benefits of VT & VE. When was the last time a group within your raid fought to have you in it? lol

    But, that's the way Blizz took the game and there's no going back to the way it was. In which case, they need to do a much better job at balancing.
    Well that'd be an interesting debate. Back then you had specs which were not viable (just like you do now tho), but you also had for example less tank specs. Right now, you got 5 classes who can tank: Warrior, Paladin, Death Knight, Monk, and Druid. Yet, you need only 2 tanks (3 on some fights). So you will lack a main spec tank from a certain class. The way it works out for tanking is that certain classes are good on certain fights and you might have tanks going to reroll to another class for tanking (like Rigg did Death Knight -> Monk). As far as I can tell Monk shine in this patch still not because of their damage but because of the last fight and one of the most hard fights they can kite the adds. With healers you got 4-5 spots (7 on Thok) and 6 specs, 5 classes. So for healers in Mythic you got at least 1 of every spec and you will just bench the worst class assuming equal player quality.

    Blizzard might be able to bring back some part of that "bring back the class, not the player" in Mythic because you can assume there is almost 2 of every class in the raid. If we could take a current 25 raid team tho and we would downsize it we would keep the Discipline healer around and Shadow would be one of the first to axe. Mage on the other hand needs to do less damage, and in order for that to still warrant them a raid spot they must provide more utility. So while we still compete with our utility with Priest healer if we bring more to the plate damage-wise we might have a raid spot. If we are middle of the pack and our utility is outshined by Priest healer we are benched, because other classes will also bring utility. I fear the latter will happen. In order for that not to happen, the Priest healer specs must not be OP. The primary concern there is of course Discipline who have been completely OP for 3 patches in a row now.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Blizzard might be able to bring back some part of that "bring back the class, not the player" in Mythic because you can assume there is almost 2 of every class in the raid.
    I'm still unsure if they are going one way or another tbh. In one they go 'at 20 format you have every class', in other 'you can't be sure to have warlock in raid comp so we nerf gateway and neuter healthstones'.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    I'm still unsure if they are going one way or another tbh. In one they go 'at 20 format you have every class', in other 'you can't be sure to have warlock in raid comp so we nerf gateway and neuter healthstones'.
    Having your Warlock benched while needing Healthstones is incredibly annoying. Not that it happened this expansion on progress. I suppose its currently more problematic on 10 though.

    Since healing is mostly triage making the amount of times you can use it go from once every 2 minute to once a fight makes sense.

    For Gateway, on certain fights you had multiple going on. Their amazing utility together with the amazing DPS Demonology was able to pump out was reason enough to class stack Warlocks on Lei Shen.

    Warlocks in my guild can expect fierce competition for raid spots. Due to class stacking in MoP we got a few too many for WoD and we will just ditch the most unreliable ones.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  18. #98
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    A lot of those people are probably trying to dps in healing gear too, which never happens to a warlock. It's almost all pures or agility exclusive specs above spriest.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    Because RNG? You are comparing two parses to say one class does more dps than another... Even if they are the top of WoL that doesn't mean they had RNG at "maximum peak"(lol idiotic term, but close enough). So, is your argument still valid?:O

    Ofc it must be, don't bother replying.
    I'm not saying Rets are better than SP, or defending anything of the sort. But in your mind, SP aren't deserving of a buff, because they are in competition for who is the worse spec/class with another spec.. I mean srsly...? And if that's not your goal, what are you doing? I really don't see your motives, are you just here to be a pain?
    Wat... I never said spriest didn't deserve a buff. IMO they do deserve some sort of single target buff. The point is shadow is not the "worst". Go through this thread and read how many times someone claimed shadow was the "worst".

    And... rng lol? Rank 1 spriest is above rank 1 ret.
    Rank 2 spriest is above rank 2 ret.
    Rank 3 spriest is above rank 3 ret,
    etc
    That's not rng.

    Bottom line, shadow is not the "worst".
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2014-04-19 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    A lot of those people are probably trying to dps in healing gear too
    Yeah on Iron Juggernaut 25 Heroic suddenly all the healer Priests go Shadow because... reasons...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

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