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  1. #61
    EoE is going to be such a great talent and i for one can not wait to try it out. On top of no icd for wf, really excited. Now, if they would just bring old wf animation back wooooo.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    @ Mithgroth: Hehe, great minds think alike. I didn't think of subspecs though, I must admit. It's easy to think of ideas concerning shaman subspecs, though I'd imagine it being hard for many other classes, like your mentioned rogue/warriors, but also hunters (which lack diversity between specs already), death knights (all about death...ice only fits because northrend happens to be cold, blood...feels made up on the spot (blood nova, really?)), mages (I can even begin thinking of subspecs...spellbreaker maybe? but what would he do?)...
    I could see subspecs for druids and shamans, as they have such wide-spread talents, would be kinda unfair though, to limit it to only the two. Interesting Idea though. With time they could probably expand on the identity of more bland classes.
    I can really produce insane amounts of ideas on subspec for each class except Paladins. Just because I hate Paladins.
    Think them with Blizzard-ish cooler names, too lazy to find any.

    Mutilate Assasination Rogue - Envenom Assasination Rogue
    One priorities physicly mutilating the target with more disables and the ability Mutilate itself.
    Envenom is your true poison guy.
    This never means Mutilate Assasination Rogues don't benefit poisons as Assasination Rogues today, they do. But they master on cutting limbs of their victim, that's their style, crippling assassins.

    Berserker Fury Warrior
    Some strikes cost health instead of rage. Seems like a small change, but it can alter and enhance gameplay in a very interesting way.

    See, Frost DKs already have this. 2h and DW Frost are already subspecs.

    I admit that's no easy work, maybe even completely rubbish and would get rejected by a real developer since it will add complexity to the game. However if you are releasing an expension and not a major patch, that's the kind of work I would expect from Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    The funny thing is: I rarely ever think much about neglected shaman themes, because I prioritize actual gameplay shortcomings, such as outdated totems, mandatory glyphs (got, so disapointed level-learned glyphs are not turning baseline, LS and HS are among them and could've freed up space for Spirit Walk/Ghost Wolf, to make compensation for low mobility/uptime in pvp at least affordable at the cost of other interesting glyphs, instead of just plain out unaffordable)
    ...or Hex...still hoping its turning instant for enh now. With no way of making it instant, a cooldown and a cast time, not taking control over the target, breaking on damage, not working on druids... worse than ever
    ...what about survivability in WoD? We'll lose HTT, the MSW perk will ask for more dps related usage than heal, even with msw out of the system, HST got dumbed down, literally...I'm not sure we'll be alright as is.
    Instant hex is a lost cause, I assure you. Even in MoP others hated instant hexes. With CC chop-down and how things are going with other classes, it's not possible. We'll have to cast it, deal with it. Make your SWG macros ready when the day comes.

    If you have checked the new Alpha notes all I'm seeing is "...removed" when I check Shaman stuff. Frostbrand is gone, and god help us if Blizzard changes our PvP set bonus.

    I get they don't want perma or instant CCs, snares and stuff and they want to limit it all they can. I'm a huge supporter for the most of general changes to the game, but when it comes to shaman, Blizzard's point of view always worries me.

    They are getting their second expension from Shaman lore, first one being Cataclysm. Although in gameplay it wasn't even close, Cataclysm was a pure Shaman themed expension with Thrall and all Elemental bosses starring. We have seen Al'Akir for godssake, that's the dream of every Enhancement Shaman. And now, I have no doubts Orc Tribes = Pure hardcore shamanism. It's sad to see the only thing the class got is Ascendance from all this story and we learned that from Twilight Ascendant Council in Bastion of Twilight.

    So with Frostbrand and Rockbiter gone, are we going to get a buff to Unleashed Fury? I'm not so sure. It's certainly less appealing than other two now.
    With the blow to our access to many heals, are we going to get more survival tools? I really hope Blizzard is aware of it.

    I agree with the ability bloat and it need to be simplified. But Blizzard promised that nobody's going to lose any power for it.

    Although I admit I hated the way UF Rockbiter worked, we lost %40 damage reduction for 5 seconds every 15 seconds. That's huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    @Futhark: Well, we're not intended to tank since before launch, only that blizz was to lazy make any appropriate changes in that regard. What confused the hell out of me was the introduction of tanky abilities later on, through EET, Feral Spirits (Twin Howl), Rockbiter redesign + Unleash Effect, and how long SCT survived as a taunting stick. It kinda kept people's hopes up for years and felt like an endless trololol-campaign to distract us from other stuff. As much as a tanking spec would be cool, it would/could take attention from the other specs, or negatively impact them otherwise. I can live without, and with them getting rid of RB now we can at least get a piece of mind now, something final.
    Tanking is never fun guys, we are shamans, we are born for destruction.

  3. #63
    Bloodsail Admiral Arian21's Avatar
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    The change to ascendance is a total of ~3% dps loss so don't really be bothereed about that ... it was op and got balanced now. Besides we might not even go full mastery in WoD ! On a side note UF+EotE might get better but we need to see actual final stats .

    Also forgot to add that now we are getting the 4pT16 as a passive with increased proc chance ... that's a big plus for us, hopefully it doesn't get nerfed to oblivion .

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    The change to ascendance is a total of ~3% dps loss so don't really be bothereed about that ... it was op and got balanced now. Besides we might not even go full mastery in WoD ! On a side note UF+EotE might get better but we need to see actual final stats .
    From what I remember that's always been the problem with enh. Everything is only a ~3% dps difference. I don't play at the moment and only tried it out briefly in MoP but that's how I remember it. I always missed having a big attack that I could bash the opponent with. I never liked LL for some reason, probably because it was off hand and it felt like big damage effects should go off the main hand.

  5. #65
    Confused about their latest post. At some point they say HTT is resto only and Stormlash Totem removed, further up te post they scratch both and move it to stackable raid utility (does that mean others will get an identical buff?).
    What now? Will enh have those to skills, or not?

    And the thing about Frostbrand...kinda saw it coming. As I said before, there still was no point in using it. Flametongue was still so much better. Question is, as Mithgroth stated, what will become of the potential extra mitigation and mobility through UF?
    It's good that our offhand has a definite take-this-and-nothing-else imbue now, though, as I said before, I would've preferred if they made current FT into FB and enh specific, and changed FT for ele to be more interesting (maybe a proc that supports ele casting mobility which is taking such a big hit).

    I know this is off-topic as this is an enh thread, but I really feel for my ele brothers. Blizzard's ignorance when saying they can cast stuff on the move... Shocks and UE, sure, that's gonna be enough (sarcastic laugh). Really blizz? Ele was steam-rolled before. FrS of the shared cd is huge, but I dont think it will make up for no LB on the move.

    @Mithgroth: I see you can come up with something (though I see them as more a focus on certain abilities/weapon types, rather than getting completely new stuff, as would be the case with shamans).

    If they're unshakable concerning instant CC, they should add a cast time to sap/intimidating shout and the like .
    Why not remove the cd then, if instant is sooo horrible? Shamans are basically casters anyway, with enh being a little deviation from that. Give it the Repentance treatment. Not particularly happy about having to stop and cast as a melee, but at least we would benefit in another way from fair homogenisation. Get rid of Druid cc immunity while were at it (or remove druid's ability to cancel hex/poly, it's so unfair a combo), and make hex work like in pve (taking control of target).
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  6. #66
    Flametongue isn't so definite for Enhancement if you think about it.

    Basicly, both WF and FT offer some added Autohit Damage, which is fency even if completly boring. Now we don't know what will deal the most damage in the end of them, but consider that WF gives you more MW Procs --> More Lightning Bolts, which is worth a lot on it's own.

  7. #67
    Dreadlord Aurokk's Avatar
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    The only thing I like about WF without ICD is more MSW procs. Increased FT damage on the other hand is as exciting as Searing Totem buff.

    Amazing Sig & Avatar by Serryn <3

  8. #68
    Pandaren Monk Darksoldierr's Avatar
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    From PvP standpoint, i'm really worried.
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  9. #69
    The awful frostbrand weapon being removed is honestly the number 1 change coming to WoW in WoD - i absolutely hated that spell, having to trade huge amounts of damage for a crucial (yet mediocre) slow...

  10. #70
    WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

    Frostbrand.

    I haven't touched you for over a year.

    But I'll fucking miss you.

    I loved you while leveling.

    I would have much rather they reworked it for enhance and made FT ele only, just to make enhance that much more unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    From PvP standpoint, i'm really worried.
    Why? The pvp set bonus makes FB useless anyways, nobody uses it.

  11. #71
    There are several things i dont understand :
    1. FS reseting LL CD. A 15% chance to reset the CD is at a first glance to low for single target and to high for AoE ( with the new perks LL will spread Fs to 2 additional targets !). I fear blizz will have a very hard time balancing this mechanic for both single target and AoE, so i have to ask why not make Searing totem and magma totem have a chance tot reset the CD?
    2. With rockbiter and frostbrand gone, whats the point of having Unleashed Fury as a talent? Unleashed fury will just be a more powerful version of Unleashed weapons, and i find that neither fun nor game-changing. just roll the benefits of UF in UW and replace unleashed fury with something worthy of a tier 6 talent.
    3. The removal of Frostbrand reminds me of removing berserker stance: yes its pointless, yes no one uses it, but come one, this spell has such a long history with enhance why not make an effort and do something fun with it? Blizzard is reconsidering the removal of berserker stance so why not frostbrand ?
    4. MW and hardcasting are in my opinion the worst designed mechanics in all of WoW. I just can not understand what bilzz wants from enhance. Are we melee casters or casters that deal melee damage? is hard casting just an option, or is it part of the core enhance mechanics? is hardcasting our skill cap and if so the why is the damage gained from hard casting so freaking small? how will hard casting Lb work now that we no longer have Lb on the move?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    4. MW and hardcasting are in my opinion the worst designed mechanics in all of WoW. I just can not understand what bilzz wants from enhance. Are we melee casters or casters that deal melee damage? is hard casting just an option, or is it part of the core enhance mechanics? is hardcasting our skill cap and if so the why is the damage gained from hard casting so freaking small? how will hard casting Lb work now that we no longer have Lb on the move?
    I don't think we'll be doing quite as much hardcasting with the FS proc and the new EotE talent. Can't say I mind the supposed confusion about being melee or melee caster, it has always been huge part of the appeal to me. I can imagine other enhancer feeling the same way. And removing baseline lb on the move won't really change anything since hardcasting has been a thing since the introduction of the ability.

  13. #73
    Dreadlord Aurokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    There are several things i dont understand :
    1. FS reseting LL CD. A 15% chance to reset the CD is at a first glance to low for single target and to high for AoE ( with the new perks LL will spread Fs to 2 additional targets !). I fear blizz will have a very hard time balancing this mechanic for both single target and AoE, so i have to ask why not make Searing totem and magma totem have a chance tot reset the CD?
    I would actually love this because it actually gives us some synergy to drop the totem other than maintaining a buff that is guaranteed to be at 5 stacks between Lava Lashes. ST would scale with haste increasing LvL resets and Magma would do like -70% damage but would hit more targets and doing so would give us higher chance of reseting the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    2. With rockbiter and frostbrand gone, whats the point of having Unleashed Fury as a talent? Unleashed fury will just be a more powerful version of Unleashed weapons, and i find that neither fun nor game-changing. just roll the benefits of UF in UW and replace unleashed fury with something worthy of a tier 6 talent.
    Can't remember ever using either of them in pve, and frostbrands effect on the talent became pointless the moment they added the snare to FT in the pvp set bonus. Celestalon even said Imbues are not intended to be optional in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    3. The removal of Frostbrand reminds me of removing berserker stance: yes its pointless, yes no one uses it, but come one, this spell has such a long history with enhance why not make an effort and do something fun with it? Blizzard is reconsidering the removal of berserker stance so why not frostbrand ?
    Fun in what way? Totem twisting wasn't even all that fun in BC and imbue swapping isn't any better. I suppose alot of old players debate on this especially on the warrior side for stance dance but ... meh. What would you suggest they should do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    4. MW and hardcasting are in my opinion the worst designed mechanics in all of WoW. I just can not understand what bilzz wants from enhance. Are we melee casters or casters that deal melee damage? is hard casting just an option, or is it part of the core enhance mechanics? is hardcasting our skill cap and if so the why is the damage gained from hard casting so freaking small? how will hard casting Lb work now that we no longer have Lb on the move?
    I reckon we probably won't be MSW starved in WoD, considering no ICD on WF. Its important to know when to hardcast for that extra min/max but I wouldn't say "mandatory" for most people who play.

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  14. #74
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    4. MW and hardcasting are in my opinion the worst designed mechanics in all of WoW. I just can not understand what bilzz wants from enhance. Are we melee casters or casters that deal melee damage? is hard casting just an option, or is it part of the core enhance mechanics? is hardcasting our skill cap and if so the why is the damage gained from hard casting so freaking small? how will hard casting Lb work now that we no longer have Lb on the move?
    Hardcasting has been a core part of the spec for nearly 4 years now. It's only an option on a personal level - are you ok intentionally doing lower dps for simpler play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  15. #75
    I liked the semi hardcasting of enhance.

    But I also like the idea of each MW giving a damage boost.

    Oh darn.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulljin View Post
    Flametongue isn't so definite for Enhancement if you think about it.
    Well, there's still the bonus to LL damage and the bonus to magical damage, not mentioning the additional benefits from UE/F, since UE/F:WF likely still wont stack. MSW will gain importance, as will wf with the icd gone. HOWEVER those extra msw's losing damage through not having FT, as well as LL losing damage...even if wf would still end up supreme, I suspect they would take actions to keep the wf/ft combo.
    The only thing I like about WF without ICD is more MSW procs. Increased FT damage on the other hand is as exciting as Searing Totem buff.
    I can agree with this, to a point. On the other hand, I prefer weilding two different imbues in my hands, esp since wf is colourless as an air imbue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurokk View Post
    I would actually love this because it actually gives us some synergy to drop the totem other than maintaining a buff that is guaranteed to be at 5 stacks between Lava Lashes. ST would scale with haste increasing LvL resets and Magma would do like -70% damage but would hit more targets and doing so would give us higher chance of reseting the CD.
    I would hate it from a pvp standpoint. We'd be back at having to rely on a totem to support us in our personal damage and burst. Also, I dont want them to have further excuses to keep ST/MT as boring long duration sticks.

    Can't remember ever using either of them in pve, and frostbrands effect on the talent became pointless the moment they added the snare to FT in the pvp set bonus. Celestalon even said Imbues are not intended to be optional in the first place.
    They had the potential gameplay-wise to add depth to pvp. However, since imbue dancing was not supported design-wise, it being removed is for the better, not mentioning that RB/FB as imbues were pointless, just keeping them for the unleash was pushing it.
    And UE/F is still a good talent, I'd wager. I must say however, that the new UF:WF seems very boring compared to having LS deal nice damage, many damage sources be damned.

    Fun in what way? Totem twisting wasn't even all that fun in BC and imbue swapping isn't any better. I suppose alot of old players debate on this especially on the warrior side for stance dance but ... meh. What would you suggest they should do?
    Well, they could rename current FT and it's unleashes to frost (and change damage element) and make it enh only (as they had planned anyways) and make FT anew for ele, some nice proc adding lots of haste, or allowing for more instant casts, or uninterruptable casts(the latter would be pvp only though, so not so much).
    So yeah, I share his POV of keeping FB, if it has a meaningful purpose. Frost is so scarce among our damage sources, this would bring it back.

    I reckon we probably won't be MSW starved in WoD, considering no ICD on WF. Its important to know when to hardcast for that extra min/max but I wouldn't say "mandatory" for most people who play.
    I never did that hardcasting personally, as I detested the idea. I think with the perk msw wont be hardcasted anymore, as we will have more abilities to use (FrS, more MSW procs, LL reset procs, EotE procs) and will be likely very, very rarely with really everything on cd. Also, we will lose 20% of it's damage for every stack we are short of max, and wasn't there still that autohit reset thingy or something with hardcasting during melee? Or did they change that, or are the macros to avoid it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  17. #77
    Dreadlord Aurokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    I would hate it from a pvp standpoint. We'd be back at having to rely on a totem to support us in our personal damage and burst. Also, I dont want them to have further excuses to keep ST/MT as boring long duration sticks.
    They WILL become long duration sticks in WoD. Thats the point of my argument, if they reseted LvL there would actually be a reason to use Fire Totems instead of "its a DPS gain to maintain Searing up in single target because it does more damage over a minute than a whole SS and Magma up in 3 or more targets because numbers"
    Will never happen so one can dream. What irritates me is that all Ele shamans complain about Searing and want to give it a purpose like Enh currently does but they instead just make it a boring ass imp for everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Frost is so scarce among our damage sources, this would bring it back.
    You could argue that Frost and Water spells (healing stuff) are of the same element in the eyes of Shamans and our water totems make up for it. Oh yeah I forgot this isn't Vanilla anymore and all the old resistance totems and mana spring and what not are gone and all water stuff is locked into Resto. Sooooo I suppose we have Chain Heal, Healing Rain, Healing Surge, Healing Stream and Frost Shock. The first 2 being nerfed to the ground for Enh and more harmful than good for Ele.

    Note: Our Healing Tier as a whole for the DPS specs is much worse than the Totem Tier IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    I never did that hardcasting personally, as I detested the idea. I think with the perk msw wont be hardcasted anymore, as we will have more abilities to use (FrS, more MSW procs, LL reset procs, EotE procs) and will be likely very, very rarely with really everything on cd. Also, we will lose 20% of it's damage for every stack we are short of max, and wasn't there still that autohit reset thingy or something with hardcasting during melee? Or did they change that, or are the macros to avoid it?
    My initial thought was the same until I saw this tweet, to which I followed up with a question.

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...56235668832256
    Last edited by Aurokk; 2014-04-20 at 02:42 PM.

    Amazing Sig & Avatar by Serryn <3

  18. #78
    Have been a bit out of the loop lately, but that suprises me.

    I have thought that Enhancement Shamans hardcasting LB was just something that proved viable numberwise by accident, not something that was intended. Now I really am at a loss since I think that this is just stupid game design.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulljin View Post
    I have thought that Enhancement Shamans hardcasting LB was just something that proved viable numberwise by accident, not something that was intended. Now I really am at a loss since I think that this is just stupid game design.
    It was by accident, but like many things the devs think it's neat.

    I agree, I hate it myself.

  20. #80
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurokk View Post
    Note: Our Healing Tier as a whole for the DPS specs is much worse than the Totem Tier IMO.
    First of all - CH isn't bad for enhancement. It can easily cover over half the hps Healing rain was doing last patch (and that's fine because it not only covers a much larger range, but isn't a target for nerfs as being out of line for a dps healing potential)

    Secondly, AG has been far too strong that nothing could really compare. That doesn't make the tier bad when 1 is amazing, 1 is mediocre and 1 is near useless. A bad tier is the totem tier - where all 3 are near useless and 1 if not 2 of them should be baseline.

    And let's not target out hardcasting as the accident of enhancement. The majority of the specs play aside from the forced depency on lava lash and unleash is due to various accidents and oversights. Until MoP the spec was a red-headed stepchild so ofcourse we are in almost entirety, an accident. That is not a reason for something to be removed in such a situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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