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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    @Omanley. You know what is even worse ? they say that UF will be one of the spells to cast on the move even though it deals no damage and the damage buff affects guess what? LB ... LB lol. so in order for UF to be a dps gain in movement situations you have to cast LB on the move... see the paradox ?

    ”Also Unleash Weapon was listed in mobility damage skills. But Unleash Fire/Frost/Wind no longer deal damage so uh... wat?
    They don't *directly* do damage, but they are a significant net damage gain. (Celestalon)”.

    As for Enhace it looks like hard-casting is here to stay, there is nothing to do about it. All we can hope for is that they will change talents so we get a choice between no hard-casting or very little gain from it, hard-casting LB and Elemental Balst
    Yes, herp-derp idiocy as we shamans always knew it, at its finest.
    -No more LB on the move => severe drop of lb in arena => severe drop of fulmination in arena => severe ES damage drop => ES still shares cd with FS, so probably wont be used at all => complete reliance on maintaining FS on multiple targets and lots of Lava Surge procs
    -And UE will go from hardly damage to no damage, with its support toward LB made obsolete

    How blizz is to dumb to see that conclusion, along with ele being a dead pvp spec in WoD, is beyond me. Unless they are holding back some new skills or mechanics to allow for more cast-on-move/instant casting, no number juggling to make them all the stronger as turrets will safe ele of its recurring pvp demise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Either you misread the tweet, or I did. I didn't see anything about a consideration of removing the leveling perk. My read on that tweet was that what they're considering, is allowing less than 5 MSW-stack casts of LB to be an option, just as it is, now.
    You did misread it, yes. Breaking it down.

    Question: "So its OK to continue to hardcast LB/EB at low MSW stacks in Warlords? Perk suggested otherwise."

    The perk referred to is imp maelstrom weapon, which gives 20% damage per stack of MW.

    http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=157807

    Answer: It's something we're considering; it does affect that, and that may not be ideal. We do still want <5 MW to be used.

    The "it" in "it does affect that" is the MW perk. The perk obviously makes hardcasting LB less valuable.

    "That may not be ideal. We do still want <5 MW to be used."

    This is the lead class dev saying that the MW perk is on the chopping block. The caveated "may not" mean they haven't decided whether to remove it or not. But it's definitely being considered.

  3. #103
    @Schizoide: They might instead nerf the perk to lower numbers gained per stack, to make it less a dps lot not hardcast and not a dps loss at all when all else is on cd. There was no statement about particular numbers of "<5 MW" either, so 3-4 could be still "okay", with 1-2 made useless, for example.

    The devs see a controversy with the perk and <5 MW, and that may lead to your conclusion. Dont jump to definite conclusions though, not before we see actual announcements on the matter. Also, it's a twitter post that could've just been on the spot. They may be even split on the matter (some liking hardcasting as a idea, other not, and the latter where the implementers of the perk in the first place, idk). They may change their mind on hardcasting as enh, esp if they're removing the other remnants of this design failure. Then again, shamans could yet again be the infamous negative exception of the rule, as with Hex, CPT, Totems and other crap. The removal of SF at least gives me some hope that they intend to do away with bad design ideas, so there's that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  4. #104
    I didn't say anything so definite. My conclusion was that they're rethinking the perk, but haven't come to a decision yet. My reading of the tweets was clearly correct in that.

  5. #105
    Well, you mentioned "removed" and "chopping block". Removing a perk just like that is no easy matter, because something has to take its place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  6. #106
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Well, you mentioned "removed" and "chopping block". Removing a perk just like that is no easy matter, because something has to take its place.
    New level 90 perk:

    Reincarnation is now worth a damn
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    New level 90 perk:

    Reincarnation is now worth a damn
    oh yea isnt that the spell that causes double repair bill?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Are you talking WoD changes? Being nerfed can be used both present and past so my mistake, it wasn't clear. Almost all healing is taking 50% nerf so 50% nerfs is not nerf to the ground, it's functionally the same.

    Lava burst was happily 2-3% of your dps. It was well worth doing and the melee time lost wouldn't have even made up 1%. Our sims were broken as shit back then and I found personally it was fine to even slow above the lowest LB. I'm sure our resident simcrafter will be around to deny it all, but this was the same patch where the sim put in around 64 seconds of actions in a 60 second timeframe, and the mage developer handling teh shaman sim around the time was raving over the importance of flame shock...
    Hi. I would like to hear more about this "mage developer" who was doing Enhancement changes. I am the "resident simcrafter" for Enhacement, and have been for these past few years (before WotLK), and I have honestly never played a mage. Oddly enough, I don't recall "raving over the importance of Flame Shock", so either I have a split personality disorder (scary!), or the history is not 100% correct in this regard.

    As for the 64 actions in 60 seconds thing. Simulationcraft has had some issues with action counting before, that caused certain "non real", but off gcd actions to be counted towards the real APM, which skewed that statistics, but did not really affect the modeling at all. Without digging into the source code and compiling some releases over the period of time, it's impossible to know whether this was a modeling bug, or a reporting bug, though.

  9. #109
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Surely if you're not the mage developer, you should ask the mage developer Such logic. Wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #110
    I took a look at our version history. The shaman module around Jul 2011 (4.2.0 was released on the 28th) shows changes from me, and bugfixes from a couple of other people, none of who are mage developers. That's why I was interested.

  11. #111
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Maybe check sources of feedback/class discussion if you're so interested. Naturally I never gave a damn about your version history but the fact a mage developer was telling enhance shamans how to play and being totally wrong was just another reason to be disregarding simcraft at the time
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    You're spot on about shaman's potential not being nearly exploited. It's a shame so few has been done in term of new abilities over a period of 10 fricking years.
    -Shamans are the masters of the four elements, yet seem unable to do much with frost/offensive water spells, nor do they much with earth, for that matter. Even the wind element is mostly lightning, all we have in terms of wind itself is windfury, which existed since release. It's also laughable that now that Stormstrike finally does lightning damage as it name would lead to believe (with the help of ascendence) and with WoD is changed to windstrike, to no longer do that...ummmm...what? Wind's effect of dealing damage seems to mostly consist of enhancing melee attack speed. Why are there no knockbacks (or rather, why does thunder knockback instead?!), why are there no suffocating abilities (denying the enemy air to breath), windcutting strikes or throwing them in the air for fall damage... So many potential untapped also in terms of fire...The elements alone make for a bottomless barrel of ideas. The cartoon avatar told us as much. All the more does shaman design feel kinda lazy.
    Gonna have to agree with you there Omanley and you too Mithgroth, What I hate about Shaman's ATM is that there is no feel to the class and we don't the all of the four elementals to use in a practical way because blizz don't have a clue how to design the class. Sorry for repeating what you said but shamans should be all about mastering and harnessing the power of the four elements; Earth for Physical damage and Defensive abilities, Fire for Spell damage with an obivious focus on fire itself, Wind for Nature Damage and utility and Water for Frost damage and Healing. This should be the foundation and the hallmarks of shamans in wow but with the ability squish we are losing out on using the Earth and Water for Offence Etc. The way that totem are handled ATM is ok they could do a better job but that's just me. as for my Ideal of a shamans of all spec should be like this

    Elementals: Elementals should be a spec that deals Fire. nature and Frost Damage Based on the Weapon that they have and Lightning bolt becomes Lava or glacial Bolt and instead of EQ they should replaced an explosive Elemental bolt that deal damage around the hit target and slows them for around 20% and that they should have Lava burst or Chain Lightning become Fire, Frost or Nature based on the Weapon Imbue, also the imbues with grant a special effect based on the one currently in use(Flametongue: places a DoT that socks up damage up to a limit, WindFury; grant's mana feedback, Frostbrand; added 5% slow to the target).

    Enhancement: Enhancements Should be more about being a True Jack-of-all Trades instead of being a Warrior with elemental powers. The current Role system is bad because it's forced a class to only to damage, heal or tanks and doesn't allow for the space for classes specially hybrids like shamans to fore fill thier task well and leaves them as boring and dull spec. Enhan should have more passive toughness, in fact their should be proper direct damage reduction system to help us out. Rockbitter (as I have mention in a previous post) should be grant us a bonus to our physical damage as well as our DR. the priority of this spec should be like this: Melee > (Off-)Tank> Caster> Healer. And yes I while believe that we enhancement should be tank Adding another Spec now is just asking for trouble and the next best should be the ability to off tank. as for casting and healing we should have some power in doing so but so much that we become a multi role class like the Alpha proc Warriors with Gladiator stance.

    Restoration: Restoration as Far as I can tell need more damage all i see is that they have shit damage and when I last played It's was terrible. They should have more damage as well as having more frost based abilities to help bring back the feel to the spec.

    But overall like other's have said before we got the potential to be an epic class but we keep on getting screwed over by blizz, In other word's we are more or less an unbuild class. As far as I see things there is alot of thing that could be done to help us out but the "right way" is gonna be hard as hell to find I think.
    Power never corrupts but it brings out ones true self. Think about that for a moment.

  13. #113
    Sorry if I missed this or it has been discussed, but am I reading into this correctly, the change to Ascendance for Enhance in 6.0 is a buff, correct?

    New:
    "Ascendance for the Enhancement specialization now changes the Shaman's auto attacks and Stormstrike to deal Wind-based physical damage that bypasses armor."

    Old:
    "While in the form of an Air Ascendant, autoattacks and Stormstrike deal pure Nature damage"

    So in WOD, 100% of our damage (wind-based physical damage that bypasses armor) from auto attacks and Stormstrike will hit the target during Ascendance.
    While in MOP, I'm assuming, that some portion of "pure nature damage" could be mitigated or resisted.

  14. #114
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    No it's a nerf. The nature damage would not be resisted and previously it scaled with our mastery. I have about 80% mastery on live so the damage is likely halved if you are in hc gear (would be more like 2/3's of damage instead of 1/2 at start of expansion). It's likely intended to lower our burst. It should still be a decent cooldown, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  15. #115
    It's a nerf to Ascendance, yes, but they would look to repay the damage lost elsewhere. One very common complaint about both Elemental and Enhance is that they were quite strong during Ascendance and mediocre outside it.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It's a nerf to Ascendance, yes, but they would look to repay the damage lost elsewhere. One very common complaint about both Elemental and Enhance is that they were quite strong during Ascendance and mediocre outside it.
    I would say way to bursty during ascendance but to much overall damage focused on Fire Ele.

    Amazing Sig & Avatar by Serryn <3

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurokk View Post
    I would say way to bursty during ascendance but to much overall damage focused on Fire Ele.
    Yea it would actually be awesome if our eles were nerfed so we could have more control of our damage and not worry as much about their totems getting nuked.

  18. #118
    Stood in the Fire Xanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftninja View Post
    Yea it would actually be awesome if our eles were nerfed so we could have more control of our damage and not worry as much about their totems getting nuked.
    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...11271537614848
    "Man knows- he knows that nothing will begin unless he speaks. And nothing will change, unless he knows."


  19. #119
    Thank goodness.

    In my perfect dream world, feral spirits would be stronger than fire ele for enhance but I don't see that happened.

    Either way, less damage on fire ele and more on is what I wanted so that's something.

  20. #120
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    I am not entirely up to date so I have a few questions regarding enhance:

    -What is our gap closer now, or have there been any buffs for this?
    From what I just read on front page, they are removing frostbrand (which saddens me, though I guess its pretty inferior but I'd love some utility options for FB and RB for enhance). I personally feel that the imp GW glyph should be added to GW baseline for all shaman as a standard movement tool.

    -What is goin on with our AoE?
    Is it still FLS spread with LL and FN? If so that really sucks..... that AoE mechanic is awful and needs to be changed. FN should be a targetable spell.... target an enemy, and it attacks all enemies around it but not the targetted enemy, if it hits like 3+ targets, it also applies FLS, and you can do 3xFN or something. Make it work like Howling Blast. Much simpler, and not as annoying needing targets who live long enough to spread FLS w/ LL and stuff.

    -What big changes are there for CDs? Totems?
    From what I understand, they are simplifying abilities and cds.... so will we still have a good variety of off and def cd's compared to other classes? What is happening with totems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley
    -No more LB on the move => severe drop of lb in arena => severe drop of fulmination in arena => severe ES damage drop => ES still shares cd with FS, so probably wont be used at all => complete reliance on maintaining FS on multiple targets and lots of Lava Surge procs
    -And UE will go from hardly damage to no damage, with its support toward LB made obsolete
    Sup man, long time no talk. So ULE is losing its direct damage, but the buff's damage bonus is getting increased? I don't like that change.... buff the buffs if you want, but the damage should stay, and even be buffed MORE. It's one of Enhances few instant damage abilities, and not op at all on the 15 sec cd..... and if it did good instant damage it would be more attractive to Elem, static or on the move, just for good damage (if it did as much as a LB for example). They might add a mechanic where you can cast while moving for a few sec after using ULE or something to make it useful for ele, but I would like to see the damage component stay.
    As for ULE.....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, I read up on some of the other buffs. Checked the talent calc and learned some things about the new passives we get lvling to 90 (stuff like LL spread more FLS, FRS doesnt trigger shock cd, ect), the new talent changes, and the new glyphs.

    So regarding my questions....

    -Gap closer/Mobility: Looks like not much has changed, but we can FRS more often I guess. I still think Imp GW snare red glyph should be added to GW baseline.... it would be a great change. Either bake the glyph, or make it something like the pvp glove bonus and take the old glove bonus (+5yd to shocks/shear) and just add that to shocks/shear baseline..... they should be 30yds anyways like all other spells.

    -AoE: Seems they want to try the FLS+LL> multiple FN's. I still hate this mechanic and think simplifying it with my idea to make it work more like Howling Blast is better.

    -CD's/Totems: Don't see much on this, and prob won't for a while. I just don't wanna be back to low offensive/defensive cd's compared to other classes like we had in the past before MoP. Looks like they are removing alot of totems, not sure how I feel about that. Hopefully they add some new, interesting ones also. I see the talent "Spew Lava" that buffs our ST so it is a dps cd that has an aoe component.... almost like a simplified Fire elemental. Not sure how this will work out, prob good in PVE vs bosses and aoe mob waves, but not great in PVP where targetting, switching, and mobility will make relying on a totem less effective.

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