the paladin class as a whole should be reworked

[Lora]

For like the third time? Paladins are in a good place and do not need an overhaul again.

[Toralin]

Revert and give me back my proper bubble and let me use exorcism on undead players.

[Hand Banana]

Ya, I understand, but if you read my initial post none of it is about team utility. Pally defensives period as a whole are terrible compared to any other heal/dps spec. Pallies also have the largest margin of error. Less defensives mean its way more situational. Devo, dp, and bubble are all pallies really have for them selves, look at resto shams which are the most trained healer. Go watch http://www.twitch.tv/cdew if he is on his shaman. You'll see how long he can stay up between and during cds. Pallies are far worse with this cause after bubble you really have nothing. And even you, using bubble as a cc breaker ***ding ding ding*** yo blizzard you gave pallies a defensive and they are using it wrong, in blizzs eyes the intention of bubble is to save yourself not your team mates. Utility doesn't necessarily mean its only for use on team mates, utility is what ever class has and every class has its pros and cons. Be the stuff pallies can use to help themselves aren't even mediocre, I'd rather dp be 30% dmg reduction from 40 magic or 20static with glyph.


I'm not saying its impossible to push as ret or holy but it is definitely the hardest class to push rating with.

Rets are the worst spec in pvp right now and I have never played ret so I won't speak for them, they obviously need something to be fixed. The are focused around turtling with heals and dispels and then try to gib someone with cds. Holy I would say is the easiest spec I have played to push rating with. I have played quite a few classes and maybe its because I have played pally the longest but he has by far the least keybinds, and they have probably the among the most room for error because they have so many powerful cds. Holy avenger can top my team off in 2 gcds, wings/DI can save anyone, guardian, BoP, bubble+heal, even holy prism crits can get someone from 20% to 60% in 1 gcd. Run sacred shield and you have a 30k auto-proccing shield every 4.5 seconds you can put on your whole team and it really helps with that room for error thing. Against shadowcleave it must be ~40% of my total healing. On my druid its nice having hots rolling all the time for when you get cc'd and gives you more room for your own cc, but outside of NS healing you dont have that O SHIT EVERYONES DYING SAVE EVERYONE ability like pallys do.

They also decided to give holy tons of cc (albeit casted), which I like in a sense that it makes holy viable but I do like more support options. Still the only real problem hpallys have is locks and priests, aoe fear is the devil. It forces us to play so far back, especially on (the worst map) ruins of lorderon I pretty much have to sit in our spawn all game, because 1 aoe fear and its chained on forever.

Basically holy doesn't really need a revamp of any kind, ret could probably not either but they need to change a few things around for sure.

[DingDongKing]

For like the third time? Paladins are in a good place and do not need an overhaul again.

So a good place in PVP means not being even remotely useful in RBGs whilst being an obvious kill target for all comps in Arenas. Gotcha.

[Hyde]

I just wish that HOLY Is more like a zealouse melee warrior that uses melee damage attacks to increase their healing power, a more in the fray of battle, melee healing type spec

[DingDongKing]

Retribution would benefit from a style like that more than Holy would. Holy would benefit kinda from having Judgments reflecting healing to party members, but it would be too much like a single target Holy Prism. But yeah, there's lots of scope but not enough interest for it from Blizzard's end.

[Rennegadelawlz]

Rets are the worst spec in pvp right now and I have never played ret so I won't speak for them, they obviously need something to be fixed. The are focused around turtling with heals and dispels and then try to gib someone with cds. Holy I would say is the easiest spec I have played to push rating with. I have played quite a few classes and maybe its because I have played pally the longest but he has by far the least keybinds, and they have probably the among the most room for error because they have so many powerful cds. Holy avenger can top my team off in 2 gcds, wings/DI can save anyone, guardian, BoP, bubble+heal, even holy prism crits can get someone from 20% to 60% in 1 gcd. Run sacred shield and you have a 30k auto-proccing shield every 4.5 seconds you can put on your whole team and it really helps with that room for error thing. Against shadowcleave it must be ~40% of my total healing. On my druid its nice having hots rolling all the time for when you get cc'd and gives you more room for your own cc, but outside of NS healing you dont have that O SHIT EVERYONES DYING SAVE EVERYONE ability like pallys do.

They also decided to give holy tons of cc (albeit casted), which I like in a sense that it makes holy viable but I do like more support options. Still the only real problem hpallys have is locks and priests, aoe fear is the devil. It forces us to play so far back, especially on (the worst map) ruins of lorderon I pretty much have to sit in our spawn all game, because 1 aoe fear and its chained on forever.

Basically holy doesn't really need a revamp of any kind, ret could probably not either but they need to change a few things around for sure.

I like you, you read and converse. Here is the thing, it isn't about your team spells performance. Holy has more defensives than ret which is why it workss better than ret, problem bubble vs LoS soul of the forest tranquility is amazing for aoe party heal especially with spiritwalkers with a shaman.

But my post isn't about what we can do for our buddies, ha if you sit hunter vs ret/hunt/sham I don't care if you are lsd you will lose unless you coordinate everything. Its about the baseline tools. Bubble = old talent should be rethought, divine protection should be a statc dmg not just magic, it renders ret useless against melee cleaves. Devo honestly is the only spell as a defensive that doesn't need to be reworked.

But if you don't play ret, your last comment shouldnt be said, ret needs defensive changes big time. And holy could benefit from it.

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For like the third time? Paladins are in a good place and do not need an overhaul again.

Do you even read? My post is strictly about defensive spells, don't come into my thread after reading the title and just say whatever you think you want when the post obviously not a class overhaul. When I said overhaul I was referring to all of its offensive and defensive strength, its not good and even if you don't play a pally you sould know this. I like the play style holy power no complaints. Its the other things that are old or homogenized that aren't working anymore that should be looked at.

- - - Updated - - -

That's something positive to take away from this thread I guess Will put this in my sig if I may!

Go ahead actually made me laugh too.

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I just wish that HOLY Is more like a zealouse melee warrior that uses melee damage attacks to increase their healing power, a more in the fray of battle, melee healing type spec

Seal of Faith my friend, first conceptual lvl 100 talent build for Warlords, but I'd don't think its mechanics work so it will probably be removed.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

There is no such thing as class balance.

[Grapemask]

Holy paladins are basically fine. I don't want to say they're perfect and don't have issues, but as far as paladins go, they're pretty much the only paladin spec Blizzard has ever really cared about in PvP.

Retribution paladins are a mess. But they're a mess in the way that I strongly believe they're the only class that is actually balanced in PvP - which makes them incredibly weak when put up against 30 specs that aren't balanced.

The trouble with retribution is that everything is a choice. And I don't mean just talents; I mean just the gameplay mechanics themselves.

Holy power is both your major source of self healing and your major source of damage, forcing you to make the decision to either heal yourself or do damage.

Bubble reduces your damage done by 50%. If you need the bubble, you give up the damage while it's up.

Seals. Do you need to keep people snared? Sorry, that seal does pitiful damage, but at least it slows people. Being focused and need more self healing? Sorry, that seal does ZERO damage.

And then we get into the talents - do you want a second crowd control, or do you want your first one to have a relevant cooldown?

Do you want your bubble to have a short enough cooldown that you can use it more than once per decade, or do you want two hand spells so that you actually have viable utility?

All of these choices are great when you see the retribution paladin in a vacuum. You can either play offense, have utility, or be defensive, but never any two things at once. That is great PvP stuff right there.

The problem arises when you enter in that other classes are not designed this way. Warriors can spell reflect without putting on a shield. Death knights can self heal with a strike that also does damage. Almost every class has a spammable slow that requires nothing more than a GCD, they can spec into an additional crowd control while also already having a respectably short cooldown on the one they have (or maybe they have more than one to begin with).

Okay, that last paragraph I could expound on all day, because I have a max level of almost every class at this point and it drives me crazy how many choices they don't have to make. This is the source of the problem in PvP - other classes don't have to choose, at least not to the absurd degree that paladins do.

Then, couple on top of it that ret paladins don't have gap closers - just "gap (hopefully) don't-get-biggers" like hand of freedom. They also don't have mortal strikes. The list of tools not at all present in the retribution toolbox is another one that could go for hours.

But these things contribute to why we see retribution do better the larger the group is, starting at 5v5 and going on up to rated battlegrounds. When paladins choose to fill a very finely defined, very specific role, they do pretty well at it, because everyone else can provide what they don't. The problems arise when the groups thin out or in smaller settings (2v2, 3v3, and then still a bit of 5v5), because a paladin is lacking too much at any one given moment to be a singularly useful entity unto itself.

Unfortunately, Blizzard has always balanced retribution with that utterly bizarre tinge of fear in my nearly 10 years of play. It's always been an uphill battle to get the smallest, simplest concessions, because they seem to believe, I don't know, that the whole game will just explode and the Matrix will reboot if paladins somehow get overpowered for even just a second, so they don't want to even get close enough for that to be a possibility.

Remember when they refused to give paladins a strike of any kind? Remember when they finally gave one, but it had a cooldown longer than most PvP battles? Remember when retribution was the only spec without resilience on its PvP gear? Remember when paladins didn't have an interrupt? Remember when they got one, but it had a cooldown longer than every other interrupt? ANOTHER LIST THAT COULD GO FOR HOURS.

Playing retribution just makes you want to tear your hair out.

[morislayer]

Holy paladins are basically fine. I don't want to say they're perfect and don't have issues, but as far as paladins go, they're pretty much the only paladin spec Blizzard has ever really cared about in PvP.

Retribution paladins are a mess. But they're a mess in the way that I strongly believe they're the only class that is actually balanced in PvP - which makes them incredibly weak when put up against 30 specs that aren't balanced.

The trouble with retribution is that everything is a choice. And I don't mean just talents; I mean just the gameplay mechanics themselves.

Holy power is both your major source of self healing and your major source of damage, forcing you to make the decision to either heal yourself or do damage.

Bubble reduces your damage done by 50%. If you need the bubble, you give up the damage while it's up.

Seals. Do you need to keep people snared? Sorry, that seal does pitiful damage, but at least it slows people. Being focused and need more self healing? Sorry, that seal does ZERO damage.

And then we get into the talents - do you want a second crowd control, or do you want your first one to have a relevant cooldown?

Do you want your bubble to have a short enough cooldown that you can use it more than once per decade, or do you want two hand spells so that you actually have viable utility?

All of these choices are great when you see the retribution paladin in a vacuum. You can either play offense, have utility, or be defensive, but never any two things at once. That is great PvP stuff right there.

The problem arises when you enter in that other classes are not designed this way. Warriors can spell reflect without putting on a shield. Death knights can self heal with a strike that also does damage. Almost every class has a spammable slow that requires nothing more than a GCD, they can spec into an additional crowd control while also already having a respectably short cooldown on the one they have (or maybe they have more than one to begin with).

Okay, that last paragraph I could expound on all day, because I have a max level of almost every class at this point and it drives me crazy how many choices they don't have to make. This is the source of the problem in PvP - other classes don't have to choose, at least not to the absurd degree that paladins do.

Then, couple on top of it that ret paladins don't have gap closers - just "gap (hopefully) don't-get-biggers" like hand of freedom. They also don't have mortal strikes. The list of tools not at all present in the retribution toolbox is another one that could go for hours.

But these things contribute to why we see retribution do better the larger the group is, starting at 5v5 and going on up to rated battlegrounds. When paladins choose to fill a very finely defined, very specific role, they do pretty well at it, because everyone else can provide what they don't. The problems arise when the groups thin out or in smaller settings (2v2, 3v3, and then still a bit of 5v5), because a paladin is lacking too much at any one given moment to be a singularly useful entity unto itself.

Unfortunately, Blizzard has always balanced retribution with that utterly bizarre tinge of fear in my nearly 10 years of play. It's always been an uphill battle to get the smallest, simplest concessions, because they seem to believe, I don't know, that the whole game will just explode and the Matrix will reboot if paladins somehow get overpowered for even just a second, so they don't want to even get close enough for that to be a possibility.

Remember when they refused to give paladins a strike of any kind? Remember when they finally gave one, but it had a cooldown longer than most PvP battles? Remember when retribution was the only spec without resilience on its PvP gear? Remember when paladins didn't have an interrupt? Remember when they got one, but it had a cooldown longer than every other interrupt? ANOTHER LIST THAT COULD GO FOR HOURS.

Playing retribution just makes you want to tear your hair out.

Greatest post regarding ret paladins in MoP (hell all of wow) I have ever read, /slowcap

I agree with every point you made, and I think the biggest fix you mentioned would be allowing ret's to accomplish 2 things at once, ie damage & snare (like warriors in WoD changes). Heal and increase speed (just example), gap close and generate holy power, things of that nature.

[Rennegadelawlz]

Holy paladins are basically fine. I don't want to say they're perfect and don't have issues, but as far as paladins go, they're pretty much the only paladin spec Blizzard has ever really cared about in PvP.

Retribution paladins are a mess. But they're a mess in the way that I strongly believe they're the only class that is actually balanced in PvP - which makes them incredibly weak when put up against 30 specs that aren't balanced.

The trouble with retribution is that everything is a choice. And I don't mean just talents; I mean just the gameplay mechanics themselves.

Holy power is both your major source of self healing and your major source of damage, forcing you to make the decision to either heal yourself or do damage.

Bubble reduces your damage done by 50%. If you need the bubble, you give up the damage while it's up.

Seals. Do you need to keep people snared? Sorry, that seal does pitiful damage, but at least it slows people. Being focused and need more self healing? Sorry, that seal does ZERO damage.

And then we get into the talents - do you want a second crowd control, or do you want your first one to have a relevant cooldown?

Do you want your bubble to have a short enough cooldown that you can use it more than once per decade, or do you want two hand spells so that you actually have viable utility?

All of these choices are great when you see the retribution paladin in a vacuum. You can either play offense, have utility, or be defensive, but never any two things at once. That is great PvP stuff right there.

The problem arises when you enter in that other classes are not designed this way. Warriors can spell reflect without putting on a shield. Death knights can self heal with a strike that also does damage. Almost every class has a spammable slow that requires nothing more than a GCD, they can spec into an additional crowd control while also already having a respectably short cooldown on the one they have (or maybe they have more than one to begin with).

Okay, that last paragraph I could expound on all day, because I have a max level of almost every class at this point and it drives me crazy how many choices they don't have to make. This is the source of the problem in PvP - other classes don't have to choose, at least not to the absurd degree that paladins do.

Then, couple on top of it that ret paladins don't have gap closers - just "gap (hopefully) don't-get-biggers" like hand of freedom. They also don't have mortal strikes. The list of tools not at all present in the retribution toolbox is another one that could go for hours.

But these things contribute to why we see retribution do better the larger the group is, starting at 5v5 and going on up to rated battlegrounds. When paladins choose to fill a very finely defined, very specific role, they do pretty well at it, because everyone else can provide what they don't. The problems arise when the groups thin out or in smaller settings (2v2, 3v3, and then still a bit of 5v5), because a paladin is lacking too much at any one given moment to be a singularly useful entity unto itself.

Unfortunately, Blizzard has always balanced retribution with that utterly bizarre tinge of fear in my nearly 10 years of play. It's always been an uphill battle to get the smallest, simplest concessions, because they seem to believe, I don't know, that the whole game will just explode and the Matrix will reboot if paladins somehow get overpowered for even just a second, so they don't want to even get close enough for that to be a possibility.

Remember when they refused to give paladins a strike of any kind? Remember when they finally gave one, but it had a cooldown longer than most PvP battles? Remember when retribution was the only spec without resilience on its PvP gear? Remember when paladins didn't have an interrupt? Remember when they got one, but it had a cooldown longer than every other interrupt? ANOTHER LIST THAT COULD GO FOR HOURS.

Playing retribution just makes you want to tear your hair out.

What makes this post so good is that any player who plays a certain class, cannot say anything to it without being passionate about their own class. And logically they should say nothing because going back to the fact that blizzard gave paladins a dps spec in vanilla but obviously didn't want them to do any dps or no healing only one or the other, ret in blizzs eyes is either a dps or a healer, in fact sub par in both of those catagories. I would be even happier with rets if it was a pure dps spec if that's how single minded blizz thinks. Or a pure heal spec. And I understand the lore of a paladin and actually a holy paladin doesn't do any smiting, so its the actual spec that doesn't fit. If only blizzard could see your post they would realize what's wrong with pvp as a whole, and see why rets are the worst pvp spec in season 15 without recieving any nerfs.

I honestly think this is the post that answers it all and thank you for giving us the time to see your logic.

[Matt0193]

Ret needs completely redesigning from a PvP standpoint. It functions as a pseudo support class, off-healing and providing utility spells to mitigate incoming damage while still having a level of dps, in a game where support classes don't work because they're not accounted for in design.