For like the third time? Paladins are in a good place and do not need an overhaul again.
Revert and give me back my proper bubble and let me use exorcism on undead players.
They also decided to give holy tons of cc (albeit casted), which I like in a sense that it makes holy viable but I do like more support options. Still the only real problem hpallys have is locks and priests, aoe fear is the devil. It forces us to play so far back, especially on (the worst map) ruins of lorderon I pretty much have to sit in our spawn all game, because 1 aoe fear and its chained on forever.
Basically holy doesn't really need a revamp of any kind, ret could probably not either but they need to change a few things around for sure.
I just wish that HOLY Is more like a zealouse melee warrior that uses melee damage attacks to increase their healing power, a more in the fray of battle, melee healing type spec
Retribution would benefit from a style like that more than Holy would. Holy would benefit kinda from having Judgments reflecting healing to party members, but it would be too much like a single target Holy Prism. But yeah, there's lots of scope but not enough interest for it from Blizzard's end.
But my post isn't about what we can do for our buddies, ha if you sit hunter vs ret/hunt/sham I don't care if you are lsd you will lose unless you coordinate everything. Its about the baseline tools. Bubble = old talent should be rethought, divine protection should be a statc dmg not just magic, it renders ret useless against melee cleaves. Devo honestly is the only spell as a defensive that doesn't need to be reworked.
But if you don't play ret, your last comment shouldnt be said, ret needs defensive changes big time. And holy could benefit from it.
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So the first thing they could do is get rid of holy power all together for ret and possibly prot. I won't speak for holy but most of our pallys enjoy it for holy but hate it for the other 2 specs.
If having holy power for ret pallys is ok then all classes should use some sort of combo point system then. Its not ok unless that is the case...just an opinion from a person who has played pallys from day one and currently hates to log on his. Imagine a warrior that had to use rage and combo points? We already have kittys and rogues if that is what want to play.
"The world needs anger. The world often continues to allow evil to exist because it isn't angry enough."
-Bede Jarrett (historian)
Holy paladins are basically fine. I don't want to say they're perfect and don't have issues, but as far as paladins go, they're pretty much the only paladin spec Blizzard has ever really cared about in PvP.
Retribution paladins are a mess. But they're a mess in the way that I strongly believe they're the only class that is actually balanced in PvP - which makes them incredibly weak when put up against 30 specs that aren't balanced.
The trouble with retribution is that everything is a choice. And I don't mean just talents; I mean just the gameplay mechanics themselves.
Holy power is both your major source of self healing and your major source of damage, forcing you to make the decision to either heal yourself or do damage.
Bubble reduces your damage done by 50%. If you need the bubble, you give up the damage while it's up.
Seals. Do you need to keep people snared? Sorry, that seal does pitiful damage, but at least it slows people. Being focused and need more self healing? Sorry, that seal does ZERO damage.
And then we get into the talents - do you want a second crowd control, or do you want your first one to have a relevant cooldown?
Do you want your bubble to have a short enough cooldown that you can use it more than once per decade, or do you want two hand spells so that you actually have viable utility?
All of these choices are great when you see the retribution paladin in a vacuum. You can either play offense, have utility, or be defensive, but never any two things at once. That is great PvP stuff right there.
The problem arises when you enter in that other classes are not designed this way. Warriors can spell reflect without putting on a shield. Death knights can self heal with a strike that also does damage. Almost every class has a spammable slow that requires nothing more than a GCD, they can spec into an additional crowd control while also already having a respectably short cooldown on the one they have (or maybe they have more than one to begin with).
Okay, that last paragraph I could expound on all day, because I have a max level of almost every class at this point and it drives me crazy how many choices they don't have to make. This is the source of the problem in PvP - other classes don't have to choose, at least not to the absurd degree that paladins do.
Then, couple on top of it that ret paladins don't have gap closers - just "gap (hopefully) don't-get-biggers" like hand of freedom. They also don't have mortal strikes. The list of tools not at all present in the retribution toolbox is another one that could go for hours.
But these things contribute to why we see retribution do better the larger the group is, starting at 5v5 and going on up to rated battlegrounds. When paladins choose to fill a very finely defined, very specific role, they do pretty well at it, because everyone else can provide what they don't. The problems arise when the groups thin out or in smaller settings (2v2, 3v3, and then still a bit of 5v5), because a paladin is lacking too much at any one given moment to be a singularly useful entity unto itself.
Unfortunately, Blizzard has always balanced retribution with that utterly bizarre tinge of fear in my nearly 10 years of play. It's always been an uphill battle to get the smallest, simplest concessions, because they seem to believe, I don't know, that the whole game will just explode and the Matrix will reboot if paladins somehow get overpowered for even just a second, so they don't want to even get close enough for that to be a possibility.
Remember when they refused to give paladins a strike of any kind? Remember when they finally gave one, but it had a cooldown longer than most PvP battles? Remember when retribution was the only spec without resilience on its PvP gear? Remember when paladins didn't have an interrupt? Remember when they got one, but it had a cooldown longer than every other interrupt? ANOTHER LIST THAT COULD GO FOR HOURS.
Playing retribution just makes you want to tear your hair out.
I agree with every point you made, and I think the biggest fix you mentioned would be allowing ret's to accomplish 2 things at once, ie damage & snare (like warriors in WoD changes). Heal and increase speed (just example), gap close and generate holy power, things of that nature.
I honestly think this is the post that answers it all and thank you for giving us the time to see your logic.
Ret needs completely redesigning from a PvP standpoint. It functions as a pseudo support class, off-healing and providing utility spells to mitigate incoming damage while still having a level of dps, in a game where support classes don't work because they're not accounted for in design.
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand