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  1. #1

    PvE Professions for WoD

    So just curious with how professions are going to be in WoD, if I am right they don't give combat stats? So does this mean alot of mages want to be tailoring and other stuff for making gear now or what does everything think they will do for PvE in profession wise.

  2. #2
    Go listen to the FinalBoss interview of Celestalon. They talk a lot about them during. Essentially, they want to remove the feeling that certain professions are necessary for PvE, so none of them will be adding personal benefits anymore. They want them to be more of an RP thing - you want to be an enchanter because you like enchanting. You want to be a tailor because you think the idea of your character making bags and clothing fits thematically with your idea of your character.

  3. #3
    I only want to know what the hell they intend to do with Engineering... I expect Synapse Springs to go. As you line it up with other CDs...

    What about the other toys? Rocket boost? Gliders? Utility tinkers.. as opposed to DPS increases...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Go listen to the FinalBoss interview of Celestalon. They talk a lot about them during. Essentially, they want to remove the feeling that certain professions are necessary for PvE, so none of them will be adding personal benefits anymore. They want them to be more of an RP thing - you want to be an enchanter because you like enchanting. You want to be a tailor because you think the idea of your character making bags and clothing fits thematically with your idea of your character.
    Basically that = remove any and all meaningful choice of professions. we give up on balancing them like we did on classes and specs, so fuck it, everyone can have nothing and everyone can have everything...yet another choice leading me away from buying WOD..been gone 2 months now and nothing announced so far to draw me back. More homogenization=bad

  5. #5
    I didn't watch the FinalBoss interview yet, but from what I gather, they are wanting to just remove the combat bonuses from professions, not the other perks. I could be wrong on this but that would make engineering still extremely valuable for early progression since you can:
    1. Craft your purple helm for that first week of raiding.
    2. Have your utility still (Belt and Cloak)

    I also see this making LW quite strong due to drums of speed. Basically if they remove the combat bonuses, but keep bonuses you can use in combat people will feel more forced into a given profession since there are only two that provide any sort of benefit at all. Now they could remove these toys from engis, but by doing this unless they added a sustainable product to sell, there would be absolutely no reason to pick up engineering outside of making scopes.

    Basically I see this either making Engineering mandatory or making it no longer a thing forcing people into the appropriate crafting prof for their gear type, both outcomes go against the original goal.

  6. #6
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Go listen to the FinalBoss interview of Celestalon. They talk a lot about them during. Essentially, they want to remove the feeling that certain professions are necessary for PvE, so none of them will be adding personal benefits anymore. They want them to be more of an RP thing - you want to be an enchanter because you like enchanting. You want to be a tailor because you think the idea of your character making bags and clothing fits thematically with your idea of your character.
    I've been doing that since I started playing. Herbalism and Inscription have always been my professions and I've made it an effort to explain to every guild that those were my choices. With enough persuasion everyone stops asking. I've always frowned upon min-maxing using professions and I'm happy that Blizzard are finally removing it, so I can enjoy what I've always enjoyed without fear of someone using it against me (as was the case occasionally in a guild in which I raided 5.1 and 5.2).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    Basically that = remove any and all meaningful choice of professions. we give up on balancing them like we did on classes and specs, so fuck it, everyone can have nothing and everyone can have everything...yet another choice leading me away from buying WOD..been gone 2 months now and nothing announced so far to draw me back. More homogenization=bad
    Or you could just argue that some professions were just baseline mandatory for 8 or 9 classes out of 11 and they just want to remove that.

    You can't change much about the synapse spring or extra socket perk without either messing it up or making the profession worse so scrapping combat improvements from every prof is actually a good way to put everything on par

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I didn't watch the FinalBoss interview yet, but from what I gather, they are wanting to just remove the combat bonuses from professions, not the other perks. I could be wrong on this but that would make engineering still extremely valuable for early progression since you can:
    1. Craft your purple helm for that first week of raiding.
    2. Have your utility still (Belt and Cloak)

    I also see this making LW quite strong due to drums of speed. Basically if they remove the combat bonuses, but keep bonuses you can use in combat people will feel more forced into a given profession since there are only two that provide any sort of benefit at all. Now they could remove these toys from engis, but by doing this unless they added a sustainable product to sell, there would be absolutely no reason to pick up engineering outside of making scopes.

    Basically I see this either making Engineering mandatory or making it no longer a thing forcing people into the appropriate crafting prof for their gear type, both outcomes go against the original goal.
    Yeah that's the problem that I keep seeing and can't quite figure out. By removing the combat perks (+X to stat) from professions, you're left with engineering being the class that offer some utility to a raid setting. Thus by the nature of some utility > no utility, you might see engineering becoming mandatory (for min/maxing) or for Blizzard to reclassify those specific enchants (i.e. nitro boots, glider) to become usable by non-engineering people (much to the disdain of engineers I hear).

    From the early data mining of Warlords, we do see crafted gear being a thing in Warlords (with item levels slightly higher than normal dungeon level loot) but we don't have enough information regarding crafted items' itemization (especially in regards to secondary and tertiary stats) on crafted gear to determine if they are better than dungeon loot. Nor do we have information on LFR/H dungeon loot to compare with. Additionally, if Blizzard adapts the Mists method for learning these crafting recipes (tied to a daily CD) and reagent making (also tied to a daily CD), the crafted gear could be a slow enough grind that you'll find it faster to run dungeons/raids than making them.

  9. #9
    They said they are making the stuff that is now engineering specific available to everyone. I.e. you can sell them now as an engineer.

    They did not consider the fact that entire 20man raids will now have nitro boots (because they will). Celestalon said that nobody at blizz had considered this, and followed it up by saying he would definitely bring it up in their next meeting. So I don't know if items like that will stay BoE as planned, or if they will remove them outright.

  10. #10
    There will still be min-maxing, at least for the first weeks of WoD.

    If you look the WoD database you see that the ilvl 672 BS craftables (so by extension I assume the tailoring, inscription, enchanting craftables) are BoE, while the ilvl 675 engineer mechshades are BoP.

    This means it's best to go engineering until you get a superior headpiece. For the second profession, I think Inscription is best so you can get the trinket asap, unless you are wealthy enough to buy the first trinket to appear on the AH outright.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathos View Post
    There will still be min-maxing, at least for the first weeks of WoD.

    If you look the WoD database you see that the ilvl 672 BS craftables (so by extension I assume the tailoring, inscription, enchanting craftables) are BoE, while the ilvl 675 engineer mechshades are BoP.

    This means it's best to go engineering until you get a superior headpiece. For the second profession, I think Inscription is best so you can get the trinket asap, unless you are wealthy enough to buy the first trinket to appear on the AH outright.
    As a massive goblin auctioneer type, I just want to say naaaaaaaaaah, don't go Inscription. >DDD

    To Shangalar, I find it odd that you don't min/max professions. The culture of wow is built around min/maxing. I mean... min/maxing is part of the meta aspect of wow, it's why we go to forums and try to figure stuff out, to bleed that last drop of dps with everything we've got. I find it curious you made a conscious decision that runs counter to accepted wow practices. Curious... not in a good or a bad way, just curious. Like I always feel wow is a game for min/maxers, I always felt like people who have that type of non min/max outlook would not enjoy wow.

  12. #12
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    As a massive goblin auctioneer type, I just want to say naaaaaaaaaah, don't go Inscription. >DDD

    To Shangalar, I find it odd that you don't min/max professions. The culture of wow is built around min/maxing. I mean... min/maxing is part of the meta aspect of wow, it's why we go to forums and try to figure stuff out, to bleed that last drop of dps with everything we've got. I find it curious you made a conscious decision that runs counter to accepted wow practices. Curious... not in a good or a bad way, just curious. Like I always feel wow is a game for min/maxers, I always felt like people who have that type of non min/max outlook would not enjoy wow.
    Exactly. The culture of WoW is built around min/maxing because Blizzard enabled to players to develop this culture. We have min-maxing through items, reforging, gems, enchants, talents, glyphs, single target rotation, aoe rotation, positioning and professions. Add one more thing and we can simply drop the visual game and play it in Wolfram Alpha since it's only about numbers. I don't play on this level - I'm a Mage first, then a player, then a raider. As a Mage, I can go out into the world and do whatever the hell I want except escape from a hunter. As a player, I look at the world's design and explore every little detail and do as much as possible in the game. And as a raider I do my best to help my guild progress heroic. In that order of priority, something from min-maxing just had to go, and it happened to be professions.

    There are people so consumed by the numbers that they don't even see the game anymore from all the crap on their user interface. Players who never even look around them to see how the raid is designed. Players who don't get excited about anything except killing a boss and getting loot. If I ever become like that, for me it will be time to quit, not a sign that I've become pro. Maybe that's why I had to take a break last year and then came back this January with more enthusiasm than ever.

    And if anyone thought that choosing the "right" professions gave them a serious edge over other players, that's slightly delusional.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    They did not consider the fact that entire 20man raids will now have nitro boots (because they will). Celestalon said that nobody at blizz had considered this, and followed it up by saying he would definitely bring it up in their next meeting
    I know they get bombarded over Twitter, but I've tweeted about this on more than one occasion >< It took all of 30 seconds to realize that would be the natural progression. It's cool though. Anyway, they could just disable tinkers in raids/CMs like how its currently flagged in rated PVP. Nitro Boost for everyone is not the best solution especially if it'll still have its fail rate (which it will per a recent interview). With the gateway nerf and everyone having it, RLs are going to work it into the strats of fights, but the RNG fail aspect will be frustrating, even if it's just like 10-15%.

    Engineering tinkers were OP this xpac, but rebalancing seemed to be off the table, like changing racials mid-xpac. Only change IIRC was the Frag Belt damage nerf later in ToT (but with VP upgrading and metas), but Nitro Boost was still amazing, and coordinated EMPs made Blackfuse mines a joke. 25 yard radius aoe stun with no DR. EMP on Blackfuse must have blindsided them, didn't even think about it myself initially

    IMO if Nitro Boost works in raids and CMs still, remove the fail rate at least. CM speedrunners would appreciate it the most, for sure.

    Definitely worth keeping Engineering for the helm and goblin glider for runbacks. Alchemy might have a nice starter trinket, but I'll probably go with whatever makes me the most gold, depending on if we get a SoH equivalent again to dump those into.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2014-04-12 at 10:22 AM.

  14. #14
    I expect that since the engineering utilities will be available to anyone now and won't be part of the benefit of being an engineer we will have a glorious return to malfunctions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    I know they get bombarded over Twitter, but I've tweeted about this on more than one occasion >< It took all of 30 seconds to realize that would be the natural progression. They could just disable tinkers in raids/CMs like how its currently flagged in rated PVP. Nitro Boost for everyone is not the best solution especially if it'll still have its fail rate (which it will per a recent interview). With the gateway nerf and everyone having it, RLs are going to work it into the strats of fights, but the RNG fail aspect will be frustrating, even if it's just like 10-15%.

    Engineering tinkers were OP this xpac, but rebalancing seemed to be off the table, like changing racials mid-xpac. Only change IIRC was the Frag Belt damage nerf later in ToT (but with VP upgrading and metas), but Nitro Boost was still amazing, and coordinated EMPs made Blackfuse mines a joke. 25 yard radius aoe stun with no DR. EMP on Blackfuse must have blindsided them, didn't even think about it myself initially

    IMO if Nitro Boost works in raids and CMs still, remove the fail rate at least. CM speedrunners would appreciate it the most, for sure.

    Definitely worth keeping Engineering for the helm and goblin glider for runbacks. Alchemy might have a nice starter trinket, but I'll probably go with whatever makes me the most gold, depending on if we get a SoH equivalent again to dump those into.
    Raid leaders will NOT factor these bonuses into raid strategy if they have a significant chance to missfire. Strategy is about control not inserting randomness.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Raid leaders will NOT factor these bonuses into raid strategy if they have a significant chance to missfire. Strategy is about control not inserting randomness.
    With the RNG, I tend to agree outside of very specific situations (LS helm of command as a fallback), but raiders on a personal level will factor it in one way or another, whether for utility or dps, and the rng will be frustrating gameplay. Tbh, I like the potential depth it adds to strategy, like when to Hero. Coordinate it like you would your Stampeding Roars. (Symbiosis is gone in WoD so we'll have less of those right?)

    IMO: Disabling tinkers in raids/CMs > No Fail Rng in raids/CMs > Fail RNG

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/04/05/te...talks-warlords

    Here's the interview that confirms it'll be back, (all subject to change of course)

    Our current plan, that may change, is to let Rocket Boots be something that engineers make and can sell and give to everybody ... so everybody can use Rocket Boots and get themselves killed sometimes!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Exactly. The culture of WoW is built around min/maxing because Blizzard enabled to players to develop this culture.
    I'd say it's the culture of competition. And it's even quite natural for a game like this. People just do anything to be ahead or even, to max their chances of success. Min/maxing just is a part of that.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I'd say it's the culture of competition. And it's even quite natural for a game like this. People just do anything to be ahead or even, to max their chances of success. Min/maxing just is a part of that.
    Exactly, which is why I found it a curious decision, but I think I understand it a lot more after reading Shangalar's answer. Seems like to retain his sanity and fun in the game, he had to keep something of himself inside the madness of the numbers. A rather unique perspective, can't say I've ever encountered anyone with that specific perspective before (everyone I know who doesn't min/max does more like rp, solo'ing, alting, certainly not heroic raiding).

  18. #18
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Exactly, which is why I found it a curious decision, but I think I understand it a lot more after reading Shangalar's answer. Seems like to retain his sanity and fun in the game, he had to keep something of himself inside the madness of the numbers. A rather unique perspective, can't say I've ever encountered anyone with that specific perspective before (everyone I know who doesn't min/max does more like rp, solo'ing, alting, certainly not heroic raiding).
    I just don't feel the need for this huge competitiveness. Back when Cataclysm came out, I said that the only way for me to play Fire over Arcane is that if it's just vastly vastly superior and I would be severely hindering my raid by playing Arcane. Which is, incidentally, exactly what I had to do in 4.0.3 before the Arcane buff and in 5.0.5 before the Arcane buff. Because of the raid. (I also played Fire on Alysrazor and Yor'sahj for obvious reasons).

    The PvE competition ends when world firsts are killed. I don't participate in those. After that the only way to compete is with other players in your own raid and I find that very unhealthy for raid groups unless it's competing for something useful (like taking the rifts on hc sha of pride). Heck half of this expansion I forgot to optimize my character in AMR because I was happy with my performance and nobody was complaining. It took Voltaa to remind me that AMR existed when I asked for some assistance with gearing.

    I enjoy raiding and raid leading and organizing guilds and raids and the entire package. I don't feel pressure from that. I don't feel pressure from reforging and gemming my gear. But I do feel pressure when people ask me about professions, much in the same way that I feel pressure when people ask me why I play Arcane. Also, it is only incidental that the minor Mirror Images glyph is a dps buff for Arcane, but I would be using it even if it weren't because I want my images to cast Arcane spells like I do so I take these very minor things (like professions) and make them my own. It makes me feel like I'm not just another raiding slot to fill.

    By the way, I have Herbalism and Inscription because for me they're intrinsically Magey professions which I chose. Alchemy, Enchanting and Tailoring are also good Magey professions, I just don't want them. I would understand if people asked me if I was an idiot if I had mining and skinning on my mage

  19. #19
    Shang, I hear you, my perspective is, you can still compete if you aren't the #1 player in the world. For example, I love to golf. I'm always looking to get better. I have no illusions on competing with tiger woods, but do I want to beat my buddy I'm hacking around with? Hell yeah.

    Just because you aren't competing for #1 in the world, doesn't mean you can't compete. NBA basketball players often continue playing in recreational leagues well after they are retired. Pretty sure many football (soccer) players do that too.

    There are other issues related to raiding specifically. I'm sure you've had 1% or less wipes. I've had my fair share. While you can say "well you just needed to have been that much better, often you can kill it next time," the point is, if someone in the raid is missing a gem or an enchant that causes them to miss that last 200k damage on the boss, then that one person has not only let themselves down, but the whole team down.

    I do get you though. I see where you're coming from. I've played blood elf and not paid to race change because I really like the archetype of an elven mage. You need to have something that is distinctly you, and if you're like me while playing your mage, your avatar onscreen is something that is like an extra appendage, a part of you. So it makes sense to me in that way.

  20. #20
    Interesting discussion. I would suggest that this issue boils down to the fact that some people enjoy competition more and others enjoy cooperation more. Since the vast majority of gamers seem to be the competitive types, they have taken a cooperative situation, raiding, and created a layer of competition within it. Thus, min-maxing was born.

    I've read several times that the biggest contribution to a boss kill isn't gear at all, but practice and familiarity with the boss and their mechanics. Therefore, most 1% wipes probably wouldn't be avoided by one or two players like Shang having better optimized gear and/or professions.

    Players often complain about false choices. It seems to me that when they adopt min-max play styles they are the ones creating the false choices. It is impossible to perfectly balance out a system as complex as Warcraft. Insisting on caring about something that might give a 1% boost to your performance creates the illusion of mandate.
    Let Reason Prevail

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