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  1. #1

    reasoning behind removal of spells?

    Yeah I am a little confused as to the reasoning of why blizzard felt like soul shatter, fel flame, carrion swarm, and drain soul needed to be removed. Well maybe not fel flame so much I know they stated less cast while moving, but still why not just increase its mana or lower it's damage it didn't hit that hard to begin with and wasn't really being complained about in pvp.

    the other spells i listed really don't seem to have a reason behind their removal. soul shatter was very useful. how are warlocks suppose to drop aggro now? and why remove drain soul from affliction? or carrion swarm from demo? button bloat was never really an issue i heard warlocks complain about. and those abilities didn't make warlocks op so why remove them?

  2. #2
    Soul shatter :

    Due the all the threat buffs tanks recieved + the fact tanks will no longer need to aim for hit/exp caps, and won't be having gear with so much dodge and parry on it, they should be able to keep threat without an issue, and well, if there is an issue, it can be taunted.
    Threat drops can also be used to bypass certain boss encounters, such as nazgrim's shockwave, pop a threat drop when he jumps to you, and the shockwave won't appear on the ground.

    Fel Flame:

    They stated how casters have access to too many instant's while moving, and as such it means they're harder to control in a pvp aspect because they aren't casting, for interrupts, also shaman's complained that it was unfair that they threw it at their totems and insta nerf'd said shaman. Also as it was shadowflame damage - it meant that even if we got shadow locked/firelocked, we could cast something and still be offensively threatening.

    Drain soul:

    Unfortunately just a case of button bloat, they decided to remove 1 of the channels, and incorporate it into the other,
    personally i think they should have removed MG, and baked MG into DS, and just adjusted the SS return from DS.
    (i rate this ability on par with the iconic warrior execute, and i hate blizzard for removing and iconic spell from warlocks.

    Carrion Swarm:

    Again, case of button bloat, situationally used in pvp and pve, but rare situational.
    Never quite worked out the way they wanted it to.

  3. #3
    Carrion Swarm:

    Again, case of button bloat, situationally used in pvp and pve, but rare situational.
    Never quite worked out the way they wanted it to.
    Could also have something to do with pruning some CC, as it have a knockback.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Kanariya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wateva View Post
    Drain soul:

    Unfortunately just a case of button bloat, they decided to remove 1 of the channels, and incorporate it into the other,
    personally i think they should have removed MG, and baked MG into DS, and just adjusted the SS return from DS.
    (i rate this ability on par with the iconic warrior execute, and i hate blizzard for removing and iconic spell from warlocks.
    .
    Button Bloat for a spec that has three spells to cast? Warlocks are the last class in the game with this absurd myth of "button bloat."

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wateva View Post
    Fel Flame:

    They stated how casters have access to too many instant's while moving, and as such it means they're harder to control in a pvp aspect because they aren't casting, for interrupts, also shaman's complained that it was unfair that they threw it at their totems and insta nerf'd said shaman. Also as it was shadowflame damage - it meant that even if we got shadow locked/firelocked, we could cast something and still be offensively threatening.

    Drain soul:

    Unfortunately just a case of button bloat, they decided to remove 1 of the channels, and incorporate it into the other,
    personally i think they should have removed MG, and baked MG into DS, and just adjusted the SS return from DS.
    (i rate this ability on par with the iconic warrior execute, and i hate blizzard for removing and iconic spell from warlocks.

    Carrion Swarm:

    Again, case of button bloat, situationally used in pvp and pve, but rare situational.
    Never quite worked out the way they wanted it to.
    how is fel flame, pretty the warlocks only instant making it harder for other people in pvp? Also were shamans really complaining about fel flame? I never really heard about that, heck i even played shaman and never saw my totems insta nerf'd. doubt that the problem is resolved too because other classes are still going to have instant abilities/spells. Still though those are reasons enough i guess to remove a spell.

    the removal of drain soul/carrion swarm to me just still makes no sense. affliction had such a small rotation so little button use why get rid of it? carrion swarm was the same thing demo didn't have some huge rotation to keybind and having a knockback was so useful, I used it many times.
    Last edited by demonik; 2014-04-13 at 07:20 PM.

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=demonik;26446843]the removal of drain soul/carrion swarm to me just still makes no sense. affliction had such a small rotation so little button use why get rid of it?/QUOTE]

    Because it was essentially the same thing as malefic grasp, except you use it sub 20% in PvE. At least for the PvE aspect, the challenge behind affliction wasn't about its rotation, but its dot snapshotting. It is going to overly dumb down afflic though, since snapshotting is being removed or w.e. Wonder how afflic's dynamics will work out.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaesia View Post
    Because it was essentially the same thing as malefic grasp, except you use it sub 20% in PvE. At least for the PvE aspect, the challenge behind affliction wasn't about its rotation, but its dot snapshotting. It is going to overly dumb down afflic though, since snapshotting is being removed or w.e. Wonder how afflic's dynamics will work out.
    Dumbing down is an overused term.
    Snapshotting was trivialised by addons such as Affdots, which made it somewhat redundant as some measure of "skill".
    Plus the random factor where you can be screwed over by poor timing made it a great mechanic when everything lined up right, and frustrating if not detrimental when they did not.
    Procs should be a bonus, not something you have to rely upon.
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    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  8. #8
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonik View Post
    Also were shamans really complaining about fel flame? I never really heard about that, heck i even played shaman and never saw my totems insta nerf'd.
    I know shamans complained about basically every instant spammable spell when you could still macro /target totem since it allowed you to instantly destroy said totems with no effort whatsoever.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    I know shamans complained about basically every instant spammable spell when you could still macro /target totem since it allowed you to instantly destroy said totems with no effort whatsoever.
    And it all started back in vanilla with Moonfire.. oh the famous Moonfire spam...
    I am rather sad to see our only instant spell go. (The only instant spell that could deal damage without any cooldown.)
    It's not like we are the only class with such a thing, it's just that we got it more recent than other classes, which makes it more noticeable when it turns into a problem for other classes. Because warlocks normally wasn't a problem. And that within itself is a problem. Am I being confusing now?
    Edit:a few typos

  10. #10
    High Overlord Wesneed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    I know shamans complained about basically every instant spammable spell when you could still macro /target totem since it allowed you to instantly destroy said totems with no effort whatsoever.
    A noncrit/nonproc FF hits for 6-7k, with the glyph(which almost all rshamans use) totems have around 27-28k.
    Ah well it's going to be fun having my pet killing totems again.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Snapshotting was trivialised by addons such as Affdots, which made it somewhat redundant as some measure of "skill".
    I think I read the exact same sentence coming from a dev or something.
    Affdots is nothing more than a simple dot timer in the current patch, unless you are doing iron juggernaut or malkorok normal.

    If they don't drastically change something in the affliction rotation and just remove said mechanics, the skill differences will be nothing near what it is currently even though I would not deny that the spec is too reliant on RNG.
    Last edited by Tramzh; 2014-04-15 at 12:29 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tramzh View Post
    I think I read the exact same sentence coming from a dev or something.
    Affdots is nothing more than a simple dot timer in the current patch, unless you are doing iron juggernaut or malkorok normal.

    If they don't drastically change something in the affliction rotation and just remove said mechanics, the skill differences will be nothing near what it is currently even though I would not deny that the spec is too reliant on RNG.
    It's because of snapshotting that all your mechanics as an Affliction Warlock feel so trivial, and the spec so reliant on the RNG of trinket procs - those procs are replacing what Haunt is meant to do. The drawn out extra damage from the procs when factored into the DPS pie meant damage from somewhere had to go, and that meant anything mechanically important like DoTs themselves, and Haunt.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wateva View Post
    Soul shatter :

    Due the all the threat buffs tanks recieved + the fact tanks will no longer need to aim for hit/exp caps, and won't be having gear with so much dodge and parry on it, they should be able to keep threat without an issue, and well, if there is an issue, it can be taunted.
    Threat drops can also be used to bypass certain boss encounters, such as nazgrim's shockwave, pop a threat drop when he jumps to you, and the shockwave won't appear on the ground.

    Fel Flame:

    They stated how casters have access to too many instant's while moving, and as such it means they're harder to control in a pvp aspect because they aren't casting, for interrupts, also shaman's complained that it was unfair that they threw it at their totems and insta nerf'd said shaman. Also as it was shadowflame damage - it meant that even if we got shadow locked/firelocked, we could cast something and still be offensively threatening.

    Drain soul:

    Unfortunately just a case of button bloat, they decided to remove 1 of the channels, and incorporate it into the other,
    personally i think they should have removed MG, and baked MG into DS, and just adjusted the SS return from DS.
    (i rate this ability on par with the iconic warrior execute, and i hate blizzard for removing and iconic spell from warlocks.

    Carrion Swarm:

    Again, case of button bloat, situationally used in pvp and pve, but rare situational.
    Never quite worked out the way they wanted it to.
    There is still time to save Drain Soul! Beta testers shall save us

    Like you said, DS is way too iconic. Just feels "dirty", plain wrong, Blizz removing it and lettin MG untouched.

  14. #14
    The Patient
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    I think the removal of most of these spells won't really be missed, but i would much rather keep drain soul as a filler instead of malefic grasp just because i like it more.
    "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" ~Einstein
    Wish more people would take that to heart.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by dekal View Post
    I think the removal of most of these spells won't really be missed, but i would much rather keep drain soul as a filler instead of malefic grasp just because i like it more.
    I doubt many will agree with you on that. Fel flame was very useful,drain soul is very iconic, soul shatter was great to lose aggro, and carrion swarm was a great utility spell for it's knockback/interrupt

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dekal View Post
    I think the removal of most of these spells won't really be missed, but i would much rather keep drain soul as a filler instead of malefic grasp just because i like it more.
    Soul Shatter I can live without, though I'm less worried about tank threat problems and more worried about blizzard making my pet keep threat.
    Fel Flame I'll miss mechanically - it filled an important role and it's the only spell we have that fills that did it, something needs to fill the gap of on demand none-dot related damage.
    Drain Soul going makes me want to quit the game, since it just emphasizes and rubs in how dead the affliction I loved is.
    Carrion Swarm I won't miss much since I'm not overly fond of demonology, I thought it was neat getting a Dreadlord spell - but I can see why they want to prune knockback - but it's also removing an incredibly useful ability on the rare times I did play demo.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Soul Shatter I can live without, though I'm less worried about tank threat problems and more worried about blizzard making my pet keep threat.
    Fel Flame I'll miss mechanically - it filled an important role and it's the only spell we have that fills that did it, something needs to fill the gap of on demand none-dot related damage.
    Drain Soul going makes me want to quit the game, since it just emphasizes and rubs in how dead the affliction I loved is.
    Carrion Swarm I won't miss much since I'm not overly fond of demonology, I thought it was neat getting a Dreadlord spell - but I can see why they want to prune knockback - but it's also removing an incredibly useful ability on the rare times I did play demo.
    i understand that they feel they have to cut out some abilities because of button bloat(which i don't think warlocks suffered from) and thin out everyone's cc's a bit, but I feel like everyone shouldn't just give up on trying to persuade blizzard on keeping some of these spells. it's still early alpha and hopefully there's still alot of time for them to change their minds on the removal of some of these spells.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanariya View Post
    Button Bloat for a spec that has three spells to cast? Warlocks are the last class in the game with this absurd myth of "button bloat."
    3 spells to cast? Have you played a Warlock?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by login View Post
    i understand that they feel they have to cut out some abilities because of button bloat(which i don't think warlocks suffered from) and thin out everyone's cc's a bit, but I feel like everyone shouldn't just give up on trying to persuade blizzard on keeping some of these spells. it's still early alpha and hopefully there's still alot of time for them to change their minds on the removal of some of these spells.
    I hope they step back from some of their decisions, but I'm far too depressed to have much hope in them.
    I was hyped for WOD after all the great features coming and hoped they'd take some steps away from the direction they took affliction in MOP, seeing my hopes dashed and the complete opposite of what I hoped for coming has me feeling pretty hopeless over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slonah View Post
    3 spells to cast? Have you played a Warlock?
    Core rotational abilities are what I presume Kanariya is listing.

    The majority of your rotation as destro and afflic is
    Incinerate, Immolate, Conflag - chaos bolt as a spender
    Malefic grasp, 3 dots - a lot of which is mitigated by SB:SS, and haunt.

    3 is certainly hyperbole, but he's right in saying warlock button bloat isn't a thing - at least with the core rotation.

    Maybe some utility like command demon / Soul Shatter could do with removing, but destruction already feels incredibly empty rotation-wise after ROF was removed (not that it should have stayed, it was clunky - but in terms of button numbers it felt far better), and most of afflictions activity comes from dot snapshot management.

    It seems absolutely retarded to the extreme to see Celestalon acting proud over turning touch of death into a 1 use per fight execute button, while removing drain soul - which was a button we used for a good 20%+ of the fight, had utility outside of that as an on demand soulshard regen both against adds or out of execute range if you really needed those shards for a mechanic, and fel flame - which is our only source of damage to totems, only source of damage not tied to dots and only button that we can press and instantly get damage out. How can you even defend that choice?

    Those are useful buttons that fill a role.
    By all means, cut soul shatter if threat isn't an issue anymore, look at the number of defensive CDs we have - Twilight ward, unending resolve and a talent tier with 2 more buttons - those could do with merging in some fashion, but warlocks don't have it that bad when it comes to button bloat that they need core abilities hacked off when the class has no alternative - it's not like a warrior's recklessness / banner that does the same thing and may as well be merged or cut.

    When you can look at the assumed WOD rotation as consisting of "Apply dots, haunt occasionally, hammer on MG" - 3 buttons seems like it might end up being quite close to the truth.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I hope they step back from some of their decisions, but I'm far too depressed to have much hope in them.
    I was hyped for WOD after all the great features coming and hoped they'd take some steps away from the direction they took affliction in MOP, seeing my hopes dashed and the complete opposite of what I hoped for coming has me feeling pretty hopeless over it.
    Actually feeling much the same. I'm fine with seeing mobility scaled back, but cutting actual class utility is just a step backwards from "we're going to 20 man so you can make use of all this stuff", to "we're cutting it all so we won't be able to design the encounters to make use of it".

    Core rotational abilities are what I presume Kanariya is listing.

    The majority of your rotation as destro and afflic is
    Incinerate, Immolate, Conflag - chaos bolt as a spender
    Malefic grasp, 3 dots - a lot of which is mitigated by SB:SS, and haunt.

    3 is certainly hyperbole, but he's right in saying warlock button bloat isn't a thing - at least with the core rotation.

    Maybe some utility like command demon / Soul Shatter could do with removing, but destruction already feels incredibly empty rotation-wise after ROF was removed (not that it should have stayed, it was clunky - but in terms of button numbers it felt far better), and most of afflictions activity comes from dot snapshot management.
    Spot on about the core rotation. Command Demon doesn't really change anything, if it wasn't there we'd just go back to using a macro for the same effect; it wouldn't remove the keybind.

    It seems absolutely retarded to the extreme to see Celestalon acting proud over turning touch of death into a 1 use per fight execute button, while removing drain soul - which was a button we used for a good 20%+ of the fight, had utility outside of that as an on demand soulshard regen both against adds or out of execute range if you really needed those shards for a mechanic, and fel flame - which is our only source of damage to totems, only source of damage not tied to dots and only button that we can press and instantly get damage out. How can you even defend that choice?
    How do they defend removing Void Ray? How do they sell changes to Drain Life as a major class buff?

    Those are useful buttons that fill a role.
    By all means, cut soul shatter if threat isn't an issue anymore, look at the number of defensive CDs we have - Twilight ward, unending resolve and a talent tier with 2 more buttons - those could do with merging in some fashion, but warlocks don't have it that bad when it comes to button bloat that they need core abilities hacked off when the class has no alternative - it's not like a warrior's recklessness / banner that does the same thing and may as well be merged or cut.

    When you can look at the assumed WOD rotation as consisting of "Apply dots, haunt occasionally, hammer on MG" - 3 buttons seems like it might end up being quite close to the truth.
    In the past week alone I've seen a lot of reasons to keep threat dumps in the game. Anything from helping out the tank when a patrol wanders in, to kiting bosses around past the enrage to knock of the last few 100k health. It's absolutely a mistake to remove them, they're just far too useful utility. I believe Hand of Salvation is gone too, which is actually really important if you have a lot of gear disparity between your tanks. It's like they've forgotten that there's a lot more to threat than the old DPS throttle it used to be.

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