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  1. #1

    'Encouraging' people not to quit LFR after certain bosses

    So, as I'm once again waiting inside an LFR because half the raid quit after Iron Juggernaut, I was wondering if Blizzard should do more to encourage people not to quit once a certain boss has been downed now.

    My idea would be that actually have the loot drop from the bosses in an LFR wing actually be a shared loot table. So, if you want that 1 item - all you know if that it'll drop from a boss in a wing, and not a specific one. To be slightly fair, any form of bonus loot rolls still follow the original loot table.

    Another possibly more drastic idea - in LFR you don't get your loot until you complete the wing. So, kills bosses as normal, at the end you get a loot bag which includes what you should have got from the bosses. Hey - if Blizzard were being particularly nice, they could even set it up so that the bag will have at least 1 guaranteed item in it.

  2. #2
    It would take a lot more than either of those ideas to persuade people to stick around through the entire instance.

    My idea:

    Players must post a "bond" to use random match-making tools. If you don't finish the instance (for whatever reason, aside from disconnects, 2+ hr in the instance, etc.) then you forfeit the bond.

    For example, to run LFR you would post a 200 Valor bond. If you failed to complete the instance that you queued for, you would lose that 200 Valor. Otherwise, at the end of the instance, it would be returned to you, along with whatever rewards you had coming.

  3. #3
    People leave because either (A) They didn't get the item they wanted. Or (B) they already had a split raid and would rather que for another part now. Punishing people for leaving already happens. They don't get bonus VP. Punishing people again by taking away valor or not allowing loot until they finish is mad. It Discourages people from joining the instance in the first place. LFR is CASUAL content. If you want people punished for not hanging around for raids go do normal.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Supercaiphus View Post
    People leave because either (A) They didn't get the item they wanted. Or (B) they already had a split raid and would rather que for another part now. Punishing people for leaving already happens. They don't get bonus VP. Punishing people again by taking away valor or not allowing loot until they finish is mad. It Discourages people from joining the instance in the first place. LFR is CASUAL content. If you want people punished for not hanging around for raids go do normal.
    I assume roughly 0.1% of the people who leave care about the bolded part.

    LFR is indeed casual content, but for parts of that casual content to be unable to be finished isn't right.
    That said, I don't think the "loot cache at the end of the run" is the right answer, because sitting through all of the bosses and then DCing or anything else (getting kicked?) isn't going to sit right with anyone.

    Randomized loot table seems like an alright idea, though. As long as it's within the same wing, it should keep people going until the end without too much complaining.
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  5. #5
    Idk from my experience, pugging is never gonna not have it's losses. Even if the group is great, even if you kill every boss despite being undergeared then wipe on one because of something silly - Someone will probably leave. I guess it's a lot to do with people both lacking patience and also possibly feeling like it was their fault and they don't want to have to get blamed for it. I've stopped raiding in my main's guild until WoD (at least) and i've started helping out a bunch of friends who are starting out with just flexi mode and gradually moving onto heroic. We knew we'd wipe because people were really undergeared and had no idea what was going on, so we were really chilled about it and didn't mind a few wipes. Finding a tank that wants to put up with that is a freaking nightmare though, they're in such high demand for flexi/normal that they can really leave if it doesn't really look like it's going to work out. Normal mode I can understand, you get saved if it doesn't work - Flexi/LFR though? Idk.

    I don't think there's much Blizzard can do either, if the punishment is too light (like a couple hours without raiding) then people probably won't care a lot; if it's really extensive like losing valor or getting a stat debuff for a few hours so you actually can't do anything, then that's not exactly fair against legitimate disconnects, or kicks for bad reasons.

    Idk, I guess pugs are just always gonna be like this. Having said that, despite how annoying it can be to be left on a boss that you don't need; It's even MORE so annoying to join a LFR group needing every boss and getting put on the last one. This can happen multiple times; Personally I don't even do LFR because i'd rather kill myself but my friends have to since they're all playing boosted 90s (that, or grind timeless isle for years, really bad stats there though) - And sometimes they have to re-do the same part even four times just to get the boss they need, it's silly. I know why they removed the ability to see how many bosses were down, but jesus. There needs to be a limit to the amount of times you can start mid way through the instance...

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Please, if I'm done with the bosses that can give me secrets/runestones/sigils/loot, I'm out.

  7. #7
    It has a a queue system so when people leave, others can join. What more do you want?

  8. #8
    Another idea:
    Once you have killed all bosses in a wing, you get a bonus chance at loot from that wing

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping View Post
    It has a a queue system so when people leave, others can join. What more do you want?
    A solution for sitting HOURS because a tank left, then the other tank didn't want to wait, then the healers didn't want to wait, then the majority of DPS didn't want to wait.
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  9. #9
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    is the OP aware of the fact that you
    - can get into an "in progress" run?
    -that you maybe only need the 1st Boss the next time?
    -that you can only get loot once/week/boss?

    Why on Azeroth would anyone stick around for 2 more possible wipefests if he has already done them this ID?!

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Another idea:
    Once you have killed all bosses in a wing, you get a bonus chance at loot from that wing

    - - - Updated - - -



    A solution for sitting HOURS because a tank left, then the other tank didn't want to wait, then the healers didn't want to wait, then the majority of DPS didn't want to wait.
    That is due to an inbalance of roles, not people leaving. LFR is so terrible anyway, it should be removed. Heroic 5 man dungeons should be used for gear catch-up, then Flex - Normal - Mythic. All of them should not have a queue system, forcing groups to be formed by a leader so they can vet people they invite, and blacklist people who randomly leave

  11. #11
    First thing is that LFR is meant for casuals, as in people who may only have enough time for half a wing. That will cause other players in the queue to join mid wing and force them to requeue.
    Then you have people who queue for specific items and they CAN'T care less about sticking to the rest of the wing when their boss is down.
    At last you have the nature of LFR, at times the group is just bad. Why force players to stick to a wipefest?

  12. #12
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    LFR is so terrible anyway
    LFR is ridiculously frustrating as a tank.

    Do everything right and you still constantly die, because your co tank is too dumb to find the taunt button or the healers rather pump AoE heals to pose in recount.
    I tanked Dragon Soul LFR ONCE.... and I will never ever tank a LFR again.

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  13. #13
    High Overlord Cherrytie's Avatar
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    Why dont make it like in Arena.
    If you quit before the wing is finished youll be locked out for queing in again until the group you left has either finished the wing or what would be more resonable to avoid 4+ hour lockouts until they killed the next boss + 15 mins penality.
    It wouldnt stop all the quitters but atleast those who soley queue in for farming 1 boss like Malkorok or Immers.

  14. #14
    It's nice that you are interested in the matter, instead of just giving up and going with it as most players seem to do. However I disagree with your suggestions on three points.

    First of all, if there was a restriction on getting gear only after the completion of a wing that would probably result in a major decline of LfR's usage. If people refuse to give a boss more than a single try right now, leaving after even one wipe, imagine what would happen if they had to, in their mind, endure, even more.

    Secondly, endure is what most players seem to do in LfR. Hardly anyone participates to have fun playing in the dungeon(s). Gearing up in an as passive-as-possible way, and killing time because there is next to nothing else to do in the game at that point, is what LfR is mostly used for. And this is the problem with LfR, raiding, and the game's direction in general. Raiding is a niche activity in the game, just as it has always been. The numbers speak for themselves: with all the access players have to raiding still it is the activity of a minority.

    After years of changes of convenience then hardly 1% of raiders among the game's community have grown to be hardly 10% taking into consideration normal and heroic mode raiding. And even the "grand success" that Blizzard is so set on making a thing is largely nothing but the result of the dead-end in proper open-world role-playing activities at the endgame. They advertise the feature's popularity while "forgetting" to take into account that there is next-to-nothing else to do for a casual player once he/she is through with the, quite limited, content of an expansion; no new zones, questlines, areas to explore, meaningful ways to interact with NCPs and factions, interesting crafting... nothing but some third-rate grinding. And none of the activities present offer as big an advancement as raiding to begin with, even in LfR-mode. So of course and most of everyone will flock to it, regardless of its actual offering of entertainment.

    Just think what would happen if all those people moaning and groaning through LfR wings were presented with an expansion that would rival, or even exceed, Classic in content; if there were 4-6 almost completely unique campaigns for them to play through, differing paths within those campaigns depending on their class and specialization even, further diversion through choices, good storylines, interactive and engaging questing, and all those in more than 30 zones; not the pittance that is two, largely overlapping, campaigns, shaping a single path for all in each faction, through questing of shameful quality and exploration that should only be written in brackets, and all of that in the "incredible" quantity of 8 zones, not even one quarter of Classic's.

    What is more, World of WarCraft being an open-world role-playing game, that is exactly the kind of content it should have first and foremost. Dungeon-running is supposed to be a secondary activity in such games. It's only in roguelikes, like Diablo that grinding dungeons is prevalent, not role-playing games. Even more for open-world games. Just the name is evidence enough. And that is actually the characteristic that attracted so many people to this game to begin with: WoW's greatest rise in popularity took place during Classic, and secondarily Crusade; it merely peaked during Wrath, and that was due to the current that was still strong from the first two periods of the game's life. But keeping a game going while providing content of such quantity, and some good quality, is quite expensive. And it's far easier, cheaper, and faster to release instanced content and try to shoehorn everyone into it by way of shiny loot.

    Only that trick has an expiration date. When a player joins an open-world role-playing game he/she is expecting to play exactly such a game, not grind dungeons. Loot dangling just in front of him will probably distract him for some time; it is how Wrath kept the momentum from the previous periods of the game; but sooner or later shiny loot will become just a part of a routine, and of that routine is not enjoyable things will turn boring. And that word boring is, sadly, what most players associate WoW with these days. Even people coming back from breaks, all enthusiastic to get back into things, spend a few days catching up with things and then engage in rapidly... semi-afking in a major city somewhere wondering what they were thinking... only to do it all over again after a few months.

    This is in my opinion one of the main reasons why players have such a negative approach to LfR: they just don't like raiding that much to begin with, but are pushed to it because it's the only thing to do that offers such high rewards.

    Thirdly, for those that actually want to raid, and do enjoy LfR, you have to consider the way they approach the game as a whole, not just in the dungeon; the way the game invites them and teaches them to approach it in the first place. World of WarCraft is one of the most ridiculous games in existence when it comes to challenge, not difficulty. It is only a few steps away from a Facebook game in that regard. It lacks challenge almost completely in almost all aspects other than raiding and (the self-generating challenge of) PvP. What is there to challenge people in levelling? Crafting? Shaping of a character? Ability-usage? Challenge in WoW is a joke; the game almost literally wins itself for you. Because of that, all other things aside, it teaches players to not take their time, be impatient, become entitled, act uncaringly towards the gameplay experience and in general detach themselves from the purpose of games, which is to have fun while getting challenges to solve problems. There is no problem to solve in WoW! Quests mark themselves on the map. Mobs fall almost on their own. Levels are gained in ridiculous paces. Abilities are too powerful. There is next-to-no shaping of your character to begin with thanks to streamlining, and what is there is superficial most of the time, so players don't spend much time with your character, exploring attributes, choices, etc. There isn't much in the environment as well, and what is there is spoiled by the developers: secret locations that are marked on the map! Blizzard has done it, they have become so proficient in game design they now change the rules of logic as well.

    Content in role-playing games should adhere to establishing a slow pace. Only that way can a player appreciate such a game. If you don't get lost in customization options, exploring a forest, trying to become accepted by a tribe, solving a mystery... then you are not playing properly. If the game you are playing isn't offering you such options to begin with, then the game is not good. And this is the thing, WoW isn't that good of a game.

    But that is not the focus on this matter. The important thing is that raiding, even is a simple, easy form, requires an advanced level of performance, communication and coordination. These things require patience to attain. Patience is never taught in the game. On the contrary it is almost officially scorned. How do you expect players to go through 90 levels of rushing and getting pushed through content only to stop and think and try now? It's illogical. So if you want to fix this you should really try going to the beginning and fix the entire game to begin with. You can't have such a mess of a game and expect its players to turn out decent.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2014-04-13 at 11:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherrytie View Post
    Why dont make it like in Arena.
    If you quit before the wing is finished youll be locked out for queing in again until the group you left has either finished the wing or what would be more resonable to avoid 4+ hour lockouts until they killed the next boss + 15 mins penality.
    It wouldnt stop all the quitters but atleast those who soley queue in for farming 1 boss like Malkorok or Immers.
    True casuals won't be affected by this. After their playtime is up, they leave. Resulting in others to join mid wing, who then have to requeue AND complete it again for nothing.
    In addition it changes nothing when your group just sucks.

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    Howabout a system that rewards you for performance and increases the speed at which you can clear the instance?

    Say the first boss, gives dps who avoid all avoidable damage and maintain X amount of dps based on their ilvl get a buff that increases damage 20%. Tanks who have 95+% active time and avoid ground effects get a defensive buff. And healers who dispel -> Heal based on ilvl -> have 95% active time get a throughput/regen buff.

    I mean what does it matter if we buff them and make LFR easier. It's already been admitted by blizzard to be tourist mode. And the gear itself is irrelevant.

  17. #17
    I think you did not think through why so many people left after Juggernaut in your case. I pretty much assume they already have killed the final bosses of this wing after other people left a completely different raid at shamans.
    So you would punish people leaving after Juggernaut, although they already have killed the final two bosses, for something other people have caused to them - additionally to the second queueing.

    So considering this your first proposal seems quite reasonable, but has the major drawback of drastically reducing your chance to get the specific item you want.

    Imho a better solution would be to turn LFR into an even larger loot pinata by replacing players by NPCs.

  18. #18
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Secondly, endure is what most players seem to do in LfR.
    Yep. I gave yet to meet a player ingame that actually enjoys LFR.

    All just want in and back out as quickly as possible.

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  19. #19
    There is no need for gimicky mechanics to make people stay. The system, as broken as LFR is, works for what it is. If tanks + healers are in short supply, they get a bag when it ends.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    It would take a lot more than either of those ideas to persuade people to stick around through the entire instance.

    My idea:

    Players must post a "bond" to use random match-making tools. If you don't finish the instance (for whatever reason, aside from disconnects, 2+ hr in the instance, etc.) then you forfeit the bond.

    For example, to run LFR you would post a 200 Valor bond. If you failed to complete the instance that you queued for, you would lose that 200 Valor. Otherwise, at the end of the instance, it would be returned to you, along with whatever rewards you had coming.
    Several problems here. Firstly most people couldn't care less about valor points. Secondly what's to stop one faking a dc by alt-F4 or switching off the router or something along the lines?
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