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  1. #81
    I would love to see this shitty talent tier removed and replaced with something actually useful and have a rune regen mechanic made baseline based on your spec.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    RE drives your rotation via RE gaming. Single rune return.
    RC is passive and does not affect how the player plays. Neutral rune return.
    BT is manual control of resources (ideally; macro-ed it is passive). Flexible, single rune return.
    RE gaming is negative gameplay. Everybody universally hated RE back in Cataclysm. I know I did. Has that opinion changed, after an expansion where it went largely unused? It hasn't for me, but maybe people look back with rose-colored glasses.

    BT is macroed, and so far that has not been fixed. Passive.

    RC you agree is obviously passive.

    I agree that if the talents were changed such that RE gaming was worthwhile and BT macroing was not, that the choice between the three talents would be meaningful. But it would be a choice between a passive option with RC (Passive; who cares? No gameplay here.), negative gameplay with gaming RE (Sucks!), and one cool talent trading off performance for micromanagement in BT.

    And that is the best case scenario.

    That's why I always propose making RC baseline, removing RE from the game, and then changing BT to be non-macroable, buffing it, and putting it on a tier with two other compelling competing talents.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Everybody universally hated RE back in Cataclysm.
    Speak for yourself.

  4. #84
    I didn't hate RE in Cata for one. I do "hate" it now since both t75 options are better. RE worked pretty well with the old BT for most part at least for blood which I was for the majority of the expac.

  5. #85
    Thanks, internet lawyers. I used the word "everybody". You got me! You win the internet!

    Such a pain in the ass having to caveat every word. Jerks.

  6. #86
    You implied that the community was unified in its opinion of RE in cataclysm, or that there was a clear majority at least.

    That wasn't true then and it definitely isn't true now.

  7. #87
    Not sure if the hostility is warranted. All I personally did was point out that while RE wasn't that bad in Cata it is quite bad right now considering it has superior options.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    You implied that the community was unified in its opinion of RE in cataclysm, or that there was a clear majority at least
    This is not provable; I can't go back in time and run a poll. But I remember it being a very, very clear majority hating Runic Empowerment. Crystal clear; really beyond what I would consider to be reasonable question.

    Obviously some people disagree. Some people will post on this very forum that the current Killing Machine is fine and doesn't need to be fixed. Some people don't understand the argument, some people simply enjoy being contrary.

  9. #89
    Maybe we are unknowingly looking at different parts of the community, my experiences were more divided.

    Either way there seems to be a lot of support for changing something in our regen tier for wod, but no one can agree on what they want.

  10. #90
    Yes, and that's why it is overwhelmingly likely that the tier will go live unchanged. We instantly found consensus on Army of the Dead. That won't happen with the rune regen tier.

  11. #91
    Maybe we can make something happen with the extra feedback we should get during beta.

  12. #92
    I'll certainly do my best, if I get in. Magdalena will certainly get in, so can funnel feedback there also. But without a consensus I'm not optimistic about it. That's why I keep posting in these threads, to try to build a consensus before beta. I failed at that.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    RE gaming is negative gameplay. Everybody universally hated RE back in Cataclysm. I know I did. Has that opinion changed, after an expansion where it went largely unused? It hasn't for me, but maybe people look back with rose-colored glasses.
    RE gaming is not negative gameplay. It very tangibly rewards those who pay attention to their resources. Those who don't will see gains that are similar to RC in both rune type return and throughput. If you burnt FS when you didn't have a depleted rune, that's your fault, and that's what the extra throughput also offsets.

    I thoroughly enjoyed RE gaming back in Cataclysm as a tank. However, I despised RE simply because RC existed, not because RE sucked. RC offered the consistency and multi-rune return that is very advantageous to tanks, whereas RE offered a single rune return at a higher throughput that is more advantageous to DPS. The old BT alleviated the tanking pains with RE quite significantly, but now that the old BT is gone, there is no reason for a tank to take RE.

    From a number standpoint, the tier is fine. My primary issue with the tier is that macro-ed BT is effectively merging the gaming of RE with the passivity of RC, which makes people rightfully wonder why they should bother choosing RE. Putting BT on the GCD is not a graceful or welcome solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Obviously some people disagree. Some people will post on this very forum that the current Killing Machine is fine and doesn't need to be fixed. Some people don't understand the argument, some people simply enjoy being contrary.
    There are more categories than this. Your bias is showing.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    RE gaming is not negative gameplay.
    I disagree. Leaving resources unused to "game" the mechanic is not strong design. Players should want to spend their resources, to benefit from them. Spending resources should offer positive feedback. That's why I called gaming RE negative gameplay, because it short-circuits how the game is supposed to work, not because I personally didn't enjoy gaming RE. (I didn't enjoy it, don't get me wrong, but that's not why I called it negative gameplay.)

    Saying you enjoyed and simultaneously despised RE is... difficult to parse. Anyway, everybody (OMG! He said everybody! Jump on that, guys! Obviously he meant 100.00% of players! Prove him wrong!) wanted Runic Corruption in Cataclysm. It was a very common thread.

    Regarding KM, no more categories. There's no justification for ignoring a major mechanic. It was supposed to be the major differentiator between 2H and DW frost. It failed. It needs to be fixed.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2014-04-21 at 01:56 AM.

  15. #95
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Honestly BT should go back to being a baseline ability with like a 1-2 minute cool down that grants 1 depleted rune as a death rune and create another to replace it. It was a great utility to have. They could replace it with something that lets your secondary rune begin recharging when the first one is at 50% instead of 100%. There problem solved and would just need some minor adjustments.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Honestly BT should go back to being a baseline ability with like a 1-2 minute cool down that grants 1 depleted rune as a death rune and create another to replace it. It was a great utility to have. They could replace it with something that lets your secondary rune begin recharging when the first one is at 50% instead of 100%. There problem solved and would just need some minor adjustments.
    The original BT was 30 seconds, 1-2 Minutes for a single rune is terrible...I would like them to get rid of plague leech, Make RC baseline and give us the old Blood Tap back. This way they can balance the class around one rune regen system. Have it work like it currently does, but more haste needed per tenth of a second knocked off RC.

    EDIT: On top of giving us one regen system it would knock off an entire tier off our talent tree. Could make a more useful tier like mobility.
    Last edited by valliant13; 2014-04-21 at 02:32 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    This way they can balance the class around one rune regen system.
    I see opinions like this quite often on threads like these and they confuse me.
    I've seen this pop up in regards to rune regen talents and from people wanting 2h and DW frost to be identical "That way they can balance the class".

    There seem to always be these assumptions that the class should be changed in some fashion in order to magically make it easier to balance and assume that the devs are unable to balance without removing a complex part of the class.
    Just seem to be backwards to me and if the devs want a design to be a thing they make it so.

    As much as we might dislike the current talenting system, it has been balanced for the majority of the expansion. The same can be said of 2h and DW frost most of the time.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinzaram View Post
    There seem to always be these assumptions that the class should be changed in some fashion in order to magically make it easier to balance and assume that the devs are unable to balance without removing a complex part of the class.
    Just seem to be backwards to me and if the devs want a design to be a thing they make it so.
    DW and 2H frost, much like 1H and TG fury, have only been balanced for very short periods of time at specific gear levels. They have historically been unable to balance these sub-specs to within what I consider to be an acceptable 5% margin. And even when they do, DW pulls far ahead in movement and AE fights due to gearing mastery and AE/cleave.

    Now obviously that argument doesn't float with the blues, because we're basing it upon their previous failures. If they acknowledge those failures at all, it will be to say "we'll get it right this time". Which they won't. Basically, we can't use that completely valid argument, because the devs won't accept it.

    Unlike 2H vs 1H frost DK, the rune regen tier isn't a valid foundation for that argument, anyway. It is balanced quite well indeed, to such an extent that it basically does not matter which one you choose. Your gameplay and performance will not substantially vary.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2014-04-21 at 04:07 PM.

  19. #99
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinzaram View Post
    I see opinions like this quite often on threads like these and they confuse me.
    I've seen this pop up in regards to rune regen talents and from people wanting 2h and DW frost to be identical "That way they can balance the class".

    There seem to always be these assumptions that the class should be changed in some fashion in order to magically make it easier to balance and assume that the devs are unable to balance without removing a complex part of the class.
    Just seem to be backwards to me and if the devs want a design to be a thing they make it so.

    As much as we might dislike the current talenting system, it has been balanced for the majority of the expansion. The same can be said of 2h and DW frost most of the time.
    They are still having the same issues as before they changed the talent system though (not just with DK of course), a talent to increase rune regeneration is a cop out for a talent tier and is exactly what they were trying to move away from with the "put 5 points here" model. The talents were supposed to be about flavor and less about mandatory to do better as a class, should it improve your class/spec? Sure. Should it be a substantially huge DPS increase for all specs that is required to be competitive? No that does not sound that fun or meaningful. It sounds like they couldn't figure out how else to incorporate them so they jammed them into the talents.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    The talents were supposed to be about flavor and less about mandatory to do better as a class, should it improve your class/spec? Sure. Should it be a substantially huge DPS increase for all specs that is required to be competitive? No that does not sound that fun or meaningful. It sounds like they couldn't figure out how else to incorporate them so they jammed them into the talents.
    Are these talents not all about flavor? Isn't that exactly why there is no consensus on which talent to baseline (if that should even be done)?

    And again, if DPS is not balanced around levels 55-59, why does it matter if a talent tier significantly impacts your DPS? Or rather, why does it matter if a tier "brings your DPS up to par" with other classes when that tier is readily attained before the level cap?

    Were you planning to skip that tier entirely to begin with?
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

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