1. #1

    Paragon 10H BrM talent/glyph/gear choice?

    Hi guys! We just got to paragon, barely 20 attempts, almost passed Hi'sek (4th, I assume most ppl use the same order?). Since we still have few troublesome paragons ahead, I can't tell exactly what I need there. So I wish to ask do you guys have any recommendation of talent/glyph/gear(mostly trinket) choice? So far I can't see any real need of, for example, DM/DH/etc. Also is there anything important that I need to save my cds for? Or just any other useful tips?

    Thank you!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    Hi guys! We just got to paragon, barely 20 attempts, almost passed Hi'sek (4th, I assume most ppl use the same order?). Since we still have few troublesome paragons ahead, I can't tell exactly what I need there. So I wish to ask do you guys have any recommendation of talent/glyph/gear(mostly trinket) choice? So far I can't see any real need of, for example, DM/DH/etc. Also is there anything important that I need to save my cds for? Or just any other useful tips?

    Thank you!
    Chi Wave, Dampen Harm, Ascension, Leg Sweep for parasite cc/Charging Ox Wave if you need stuns on bloods, Xuen.

    I'd glyph Fortuitous Spheres, Enduring Healing Spheres, and any of your choice, either Zen Meditation for ignoring catalsyt or Nimble Brew for if you ever get hit by whirling.

    Make sure you're using 4pc, it's pretty nice.

    Klaxxi on 10 is probably the fight where you want the most mastery. Haste is nice too because you'll be able to purify lots at the end where you're taking the most damage and you'll have shuffle banked up.

    EDIT: Clarification, you want more mastery and haste, but still focus on crit.

    If you're scorpioning, be sure to call lots and lots of externals, and use fort brew and dampen before going into it. Note that your stagger will get very high while scorpioned.

  3. #3
    If you're scorpioning, be sure to call lots and lots of externals, and use fort brew and dampen before going into it. Note that your stagger will get very high while scorpioned.
    Unless you're double BrM, there's really no reason to put a BrM in the scorpion. The 15% dmg dampening from being a BrM applies to the suit, making BrM universally the worst for the scorpion... on top of the part that they'll take the most damage in it due to not being able to ever clear their stagger.

    Do want to echo what you said about mastery though. The last few bosses hit HARD, and kil'ruk is capable of 1.2M damage pre mitigation in one second if he double hits you. Let alone what kar'oz does -.-

  4. #4
    Klaxxi on 10 is probably the fight where you want the most mastery. Haste is nice too because you'll be able to purify lots at the end where you're taking the most damage and you'll have shuffle banked up.

    EDIT: Clarification, you want more mastery and haste, but still focus on crit.
    You should never actively gear towards haste in any way right now. You'll probably have some on a few pieces because of how things are currently itemized but you can accomplish anything you need to do with 0 haste.

    The choice between crit and mastery is yours. My personal recommendation is to hit the crit softcap (assuming you're dual wielding) and then pour everything else into mastery. The reverse of this is to prioritize 20% buffed mastery and then pour everything into crit. For progression I reccomend favoring a bit of mastery because when you do get to the end, the bosses hit incredibly hard (particularly Ka'oraz the Locust).

    My biggest tip to you (especially if you end up tanking locust at the end like I do) is to be very very very wary of your shuffle uptime and how much of your buff is remaining once you start actively tanking locust (my co-tank and I switch between who has lucid and locust after Xaril is dead since I'm tanking Xaril and Lucid has a lot of points where he doesn't swing because he's casting so it reduces the spikes in tank damage a little ). While tanking Locust you'll notice that he likes to run around a lot which actually can cause a deficit in your shuffle uptime vs what you've got stacked up from the rest of the fight and its very easy for it to creep up on you and cause him to come and punch you in the face with no shuffle at all. Something that will exacerbate this is freaking out and over purifying your stagger which again will make you fall behind on your chi generation.

    If you solo tanked H thok for progression you should be somewhat comfortable with seeing your stagger in higher numbers without freaking out too much so that you purify everytime it turns red. If not, I reccomend you assess when you really need to purify. If locust is about to run off and do one of his abilities, do you really need to purify a stagger that's ticking for 150k a sec? I've seen too many logs where towards the end brewmasters will lose stagger while tanking locust because of how your uptime suffers while tanking him. This can obviously be remedied by being close enough to another boss to continue to generate shuffle, but watching how often you purify can often go a long ways to alleviating this as well.

    If a boss is meleeing you particularly hard, don't be afraid to pop Dampen Harm to smooth a few of the hits. The bosses hit for quite a bit and anything you can do to smooth the damage helps you and gives your healers more time to react. Figure out as well where you want to use fortifying brew. I like to use it towards the end of Rik'kal the Dissector's life (when he's roughly 30%), during Xaril the Poisoned Mind's purple catalyst, and finally while tanking Locust and it becomes a cooldown rotation to not get smashed (don't be afraid to call for externals).

    Be smart about your guards when you have very high vengence. If you can wait until you're below 35% to guard, you can pretty much heal yourself up entirely while preventing 2 or 3 swings. Also be aware of where your GotOx orbs are because they can be your saving grace, especially at the end. None of the bosses after Korven the Prime cleave, so don't be afraid so move around a little to pick these ups as you're getting your face kicked in.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Runeheal View Post
    Chi Wave, Dampen Harm, Ascension, Leg Sweep for parasite cc/Charging Ox Wave if you need stuns on bloods, Xuen.

    I'd glyph Fortuitous Spheres, Enduring Healing Spheres, and any of your choice, either Zen Meditation for ignoring catalsyt or Nimble Brew for if you ever get hit by whirling.

    Make sure you're using 4pc, it's pretty nice.

    Klaxxi on 10 is probably the fight where you want the most mastery. Haste is nice too because you'll be able to purify lots at the end where you're taking the most damage and you'll have shuffle banked up.

    EDIT: Clarification, you want more mastery and haste, but still focus on crit.

    If you're scorpioning, be sure to call lots and lots of externals, and use fort brew and dampen before going into it. Note that your stagger will get very high while scorpioned.
    I'm not doing scorpion, and unfortunately I dropped my 4pc for heroics cuz I couldn't get heroic tiers very soon (I'm using my pally for thok and didn't get too many kills on siegecrafter). Looks like I need to drop some extra crit for mastery, unreforge TED would be a good source. Nimble Brew and Fortuitous Spheres are actually a pretty good advice! Thanks!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    You should never actively gear towards haste in any way right now. You'll probably have some on a few pieces because of how things are currently itemized but you can accomplish anything you need to do with 0 haste.

    The choice between crit and mastery is yours. My personal recommendation is to hit the crit softcap (assuming you're dual wielding) and then pour everything else into mastery. The reverse of this is to prioritize 20% buffed mastery and then pour everything into crit. For progression I reccomend favoring a bit of mastery because when you do get to the end, the bosses hit incredibly hard (particularly Ka'oraz the Locust).

    My biggest tip to you (especially if you end up tanking locust at the end like I do) is to be very very very wary of your shuffle uptime and how much of your buff is remaining once you start actively tanking locust (my co-tank and I switch between who has lucid and locust after Xaril is dead since I'm tanking Xaril and Lucid has a lot of points where he doesn't swing because he's casting so it reduces the spikes in tank damage a little ). While tanking Locust you'll notice that he likes to run around a lot which actually can cause a deficit in your shuffle uptime vs what you've got stacked up from the rest of the fight and its very easy for it to creep up on you and cause him to come and punch you in the face with no shuffle at all. Something that will exacerbate this is freaking out and over purifying your stagger which again will make you fall behind on your chi generation.

    If you solo tanked H thok for progression you should be somewhat comfortable with seeing your stagger in higher numbers without freaking out too much so that you purify everytime it turns red. If not, I reccomend you assess when you really need to purify. If locust is about to run off and do one of his abilities, do you really need to purify a stagger that's ticking for 150k a sec? I've seen too many logs where towards the end brewmasters will lose stagger while tanking locust because of how your uptime suffers while tanking him. This can obviously be remedied by being close enough to another boss to continue to generate shuffle, but watching how often you purify can often go a long ways to alleviating this as well.

    If a boss is meleeing you particularly hard, don't be afraid to pop Dampen Harm to smooth a few of the hits. The bosses hit for quite a bit and anything you can do to smooth the damage helps you and gives your healers more time to react. Figure out as well where you want to use fortifying brew. I like to use it towards the end of Rik'kal the Dissector's life (when he's roughly 30%), during Xaril the Poisoned Mind's purple catalyst, and finally while tanking Locust and it becomes a cooldown rotation to not get smashed (don't be afraid to call for externals).

    Be smart about your guards when you have very high vengence. If you can wait until you're below 35% to guard, you can pretty much heal yourself up entirely while preventing 2 or 3 swings. Also be aware of where your GotOx orbs are because they can be your saving grace, especially at the end. None of the bosses after Korven the Prime cleave, so don't be afraid so move around a little to pick these ups as you're getting your face kicked in.
    It sounds to me like you could use some haste tho. But that shouldn't be that much of a problem. A friend also told me about locust and I think I already figured out how we should swap on that

    I didn't tank thok on my monk. I've been bringing my pally. But yea I'm aware of that purify trick. I wish we still have T15 bonus here

    Guard is actually a good advice! I'll keep an eye on the timing. Thanks!

  6. #6
    Here are a few little tricks on this fight that I use.
    #1 when learning the fight, place transcendence outside, so you can reset if too many people die early.
    #2 when the boss does Rapid fire from the center, you can place your transcendence there and port back to it as soon as it runs out. (you can not longer reset the fight though)
    #3 are you tanking the dissector? if so, I usually fort brew right off the bat because you can't cast guard or EB until you've got a stack of the debuff.
    #4 I'd recommend dampen harm for the later phases of the fight because Locust hits like a truck (I've seen up to 1.6M) Just pop it right before he lands.
    #5 if you're tanking locust and killing him last, he will hit very hard towards the end. take the time he's up in the air to build up your shuffle. If shuffle is about to wear off when he goes up, let it fall off and build up your chi until he's about to land, then cast blackout kick with your 5 chi and try to build up that extra 15-20 seconds of shuffle.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thaynia View Post
    #5 if you're tanking locust and killing him last, he will hit very hard towards the end. take the time he's up in the air to build up your shuffle. If shuffle is about to wear off when he goes up, let it fall off and build up your chi until he's about to land, then cast blackout kick with your 5 chi and try to build up that extra 15-20 seconds of shuffle.
    I actually was thinking about this. So I think standard rotation is ...->Poison-mind->Manipulator->Locust->Lucid->Windreaver. How about just kill locust before manipulator so he doesn't rape the group? If manipulator just does the MC thing don't think it's that troublesome is it?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I actually was thinking about this. So I think standard rotation is ...->Poison-mind->Manipulator->Locust->Lucid->Windreaver. How about just kill locust before manipulator so he doesn't rape the group? If manipulator just does the MC thing don't think it's that troublesome is it?
    The MC pulls damage away from the bosses, does a lot of damage to the fixate, and after enough MCs will spawn a kunchong that has to be killed. Locust doesn't do anything as long as people move for ambers and whirlings. While he hits tanks hard, it's very easily survived with one tank holding locust, and one holding wind-reaver.

    Standard rotation is blood > dissector > Prime > Swarmkeeper > Poison mind > Lucid > Manipulator > Wind-reaver > Locust afaik. Do some groups really hold lucid till the end? Even post nerf fire lines still hurt a bit.

    EDIT: Now that I think of it, the main reason to leave locust up till the last is because he's one of the few paragons that won't insta wipe the raid on a berserk, since whirling and ambers are still dodgeable. Leave windreaver to last and he gets a berserked reave and you're going to die... not that enrage should be that much of a concern anymore.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2014-04-16 at 11:20 PM.

  9. #9
    We kill locust before wind reaver (because it opens up the possibility of the tank getting gibbed) and wind reaver's stacks aren't near the point that locust's are at that point.

    We kill Manipulator before lucid though because of how much damage is wasted on kunchongs and how dicey it can get if bad rng picks a ranged that's somewhat close to a kunchong. The second mesmerize always causes a kunchong to mature in our group, not sure if its different for others, so we have the wind reaver tank go sit close to it while everyone else gets away from it since it targets (supposedly, its buggy sometimes) the nearest person and you don't want that to be a healer or a dps. Lucid dies after Manipulator then its Locust > Wind-Reaver. Our full order is Bloodseeker > Dissector > Prime > Swarm Keeper > Poisoned Mind > Manipulator > Lucid > Locust > Wind Reaver.

    It sounds to me like you could use some haste tho.
    The amount of haste you'd even need to make even the slightest noticeable difference in how much you can purify/BoK is better spent in crit or mastery. If you get it because those're the pieces you have that's fine, but its easily the lowest priority stat this tier out of mastery/crit/haste.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  10. #10
    The main reason why locust is usually killed last was because when we were first attempting these guys, our gear was bad enough that first kills were consistently made 30 sec - 1 min after the enrage. Of the possible mobs alive at that point, Karoz is the only one that doesn't have a raid-wide instawipe ability like reave or the fire lines after enrage, so he was the best possible guy to enrage on.

    So all the top guilds left Karoz until the end, and our kill videos reflected that, so people ended up copying the order.

    Not to say that it's the wrong order - in fact I think killing him last is actually the correct strat, since, by the time you get to the last few bosses, your raid has had enough pulls on the fight that you've learned to dodge whirl and amber and the only danger he poses is his 15 seconds of melee every 40 seconds to the tank.

    Also, RJW kicks the shit out of Xuen for this fight. RJW accounts for about 30-35% of my relevant (non padding) damage, and even padding damage is helpful with the additional healing orbs and raid guards. Xuen is like +10-12% relevant damage with no raid bonus. There's no real burst scenario you want to save Xuen for either.

    Healing elixir is probably more helpful than diffuse or dampen too, imo.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2014-04-16 at 11:53 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The main reason why locust is usually killed last was because when we were first attempting these guys, our gear was bad enough that first kills were consistently made 30 sec - 1 min after the enrage. Of the possible mobs alive at that point, Karoz is the only one that doesn't have a raid-wide instawipe ability like reave or the fire lines after enrage, so he was the best possible guy to enrage on.

    So all the top guilds left Karoz until the end, and our kill videos reflected that, so people ended up copying the order.

    Not to say that it's the wrong order - in fact I think killing him last is actually the correct strat, since, by the time you get to the last few bosses, your raid has had enough pulls on the fight that you've learned to dodge whirl and amber and the only danger he poses is his 15 seconds of melee every 40 seconds to the tank.

    Also, RJW kicks the shit out of Xuen for this fight. RJW accounts for about 30-35% of my relevant (non padding) damage, and even padding damage is helpful with the additional healing orbs and raid guards. Xuen is like +10-12% relevant damage with no raid bonus. There's no real burst scenario you want to save Xuen for either.

    Healing elixir is probably more helpful than diffuse or dampen too, imo.
    I've thought about this actually but doesn't seem you have enough RJW uptime to beat white tiger does it? Bosses are not always stack up and tbh there are only few bosses that you want to pass a dps check, which white tiger can actually help that.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    We kill locust before wind reaver (because it opens up the possibility of the tank getting gibbed) and wind reaver's stacks aren't near the point that locust's are at that point.
    In my experience wind reaver gibbs us more often than locust ever does. Probably cuz wind is DW but locust isn't (or at least doesn't seem to be)

    -0.64s Ka'roz the Locust Melee Kegsmash 221773 (A: 622084) (O: 171144)
    -2.13s Ka'roz the Locust Melee Kegsmash 419505 (A: 664180)

    -0.36s Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver Razor Sharp Blades Kegsmash 245459 (A: 398279) (O: 6099)
    -0.39s Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver Razor Sharp Blades Kegsmash 241462 (A: 382294)

    Doesn't make sense from a number point (since locust did like 800k more damage with those autos) but for some reason I just don't like DW mobs *shrug*. Part of it is that reave does do a sizable chunk of damage to the raid, so we like to get that out of the way.

    Different raids, different strats. Although on a side note, think I'm gunna start wearing my 4pc again for paragons... dat stagger absorb.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2014-04-17 at 01:21 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I've thought about this actually but doesn't seem you have enough RJW uptime to beat white tiger does it? Bosses are not always stack up and tbh there are only few bosses that you want to pass a dps check, which white tiger can actually help that.
    Looking through a relevant damage parse - literally going to the expression editor, and putting in a really long string in this pseudocode:

    Damage done to skeer and bloods until skeer death, then add to
    Damage done to rikkal from skeer death until rikkal death, then add to
    Damage done to hisek and karoz from rikkal death until hisek death, then add to
    ..
    Damage Done to karoz after Kil'ruk death

    (You'll see why you need this expression parse a few months after farm when for some reason your warlocks are mysteriously averaging 1.2 mil dps across the entire fight on the damage meter.)

    My RJW damage came out to be 30-35% of my total damage, consistently. Xuen never does more than ~12-13% relevant damage (single target, at least) over any fight, especially a long one like Paragons where you don't have a couple of OMGamazing xuen bombs to skew the numbers like you do on Malkorok.

    Look at the numbers this way:

    Lets say, without the level 90 talent, you do ~400k dps.
    RJW will then add 200k dps all the time
    Xuen will adds 250k dps, 1/4 of the time, for an average of around 65k more dps total.

    (I'm actually being kinda generous to Xuen there).
    Are you willing to give up ~150k dps for the entirety of the fight just to have a 50k burst 1/4 of the time? I doubt it.

    ---

    As for its usability, it's strat dependent. For our kills, I think there are 3 mobs within range of RJW for about 70% of the fight. I tend to ignore whether I get a chi from it though and just keep the thing on cd whenever I can until my shuffle bank is nearly gone anyway.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2014-04-17 at 07:34 AM.

  14. #14
    We've always kept the bosses split up for the entirety of the fight (no more than 2 together at the same time) so I wouldn't be gaining the chi from it, and looking at how my shuffle usually starts losing time as I tank locust (my gm/raid leader wants me to stay away from lucid and wind reaver) I'm not so sure my situation would gain much from RJW other than possibly trapping myself into dropping shuffle if I look away for more than a moment. That said this could be remedied by us keeping them together but last time I did that, I got yelled at because suddenly locust was now doing whirling starting in melee and people couldn't figure out wtf was going on.

    I could certainly see a benefit to raid guards to say the least (especially in 10 man).
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    The reverse of this is to prioritize 20% buffed mastery and then pour everything into crit.
    This is how I geared(normally the 3rd tank and had no clue what I was doing...still don't tbh.) when one of our real tanks went on a break. I can't recall ever actually getting killed before a wipe was called on 25m so 20% buffed should be more than enough mastery for 10m.

    The only other thing I can add that I haven't seen above was that if you end up tanking Ka'roz use whatever other bosses are left to keep your shuffle up while he is running around/jumping on platforms

  16. #16
    Just one further question. I'm unlucky on heroic tier so I dropped some normal tier for heroic pieces. For this boss do you think it's worth to use normal tier 4 set instead of few heroic pieces?

  17. #17
    When it comes to heroic Bugs i find myself using the 4 pc, because your stagger can get quite high and the self heals will help. As for reforges I run with the normal crit build, trinkets i'll run a standard set up of Haromm's and T.E.D. Talents I run with Xu'en because I find the bugs are more often split up then stacked up, and for glyphs i'll use enduring healing spheres, fortuitous spheres, and fortifying brew. If you do go Scorpion MAKE SURE the other tank runs CDs and has Korven/Karoz on him or else you will die.

  18. #18
    Once Locust starts hitting really hard, and you near the end of the fight - start calling for externals, use chi wave, dampen harm, and guard wisely.

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