Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Doesn't reducing utility and mobility mean less interesting encounters?

    When they first announced 20 Mythic as the new singular format for high end raiding, they said the reasoning was to be able to make much more use of class utility to make encounters more interesting because in the larger format you'd be more likely to have said utility available, and I was pretty excited and very possitive about it. Yet now with the new announcement of class ability pruning, they've directly said that they want to reign in class utility to the lower base, rather than expand on those with little utility by offering them more. It seems like they're trying to "fix" a problem in class design, that already stopped existing with the change to the raiding model.

    On top of this, they're aiming for reduced mobility for ranged classes and healers; and with encounters designed around the toolkits available, this kinda suggests that actually ranged and healers won't really be expected to move much either. So if we don't need to move, and don't have any tools left (Warlock utility is particularly passive - as strong as it is, it actually requires the other players to click it); we're not left with not a lot to do beyond DPSing stuff. Where are those moments for you to let your class 'shine' going to come in, that 20 Mythic was supposed to be all about?

    Edit to be clear on a couple of things:
    - I am completely fine with and all for reduced mobility and more focus on 'skill moving' with instants etc.
    - Utility isn't just raid cooldowns; it's interrupts, knockbacks, stuns, slows, speed boosts, misdirects, taunts etc etc.
    - Losing availability of utility isn't just about it being cut from a class, longer cooldowns and shared DRs also reduce availability/frequency of use.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2014-04-17 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #2
    yeah lets all be like the current shamans spamming everything while running, looks like a fun game for everyone. Homonization please!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    with encounters designed around the toolkits available, this kinda suggests that actually ranged and healers won't really be expected to move much either.
    Both Celestalon and Watcher have said on Twitter and elsewhere that movement DPS will continue to be present in WoD raiding; you'll simply be expected to use filler instants etc. to deal with that. They're very much trying to bring ranged DPS back in line with melee DPS.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hypetrain View Post
    yeah lets all be like the current shamans spamming everything while running, looks like a fun game for everyone. Homonization please!
    For the record, over on the Warlock forums my views on Kil'jaeden's Cunning talent (move casting) aren't exactly popular.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by YeahNo View Post
    Both Celestalon and Watcher have said on Twitter and elsewhere that movement DPS will continue to be present in WoD raiding; you'll simply be expected to use filler instants etc. to deal with that. They're very much trying to bring ranged DPS back in line with melee DPS.
    I'm all for 'skill moving' during instants/procs etc; they're not something healers will have a great deal of though.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    For the record, over on the Warlock forums my views on Kil'jaeden's Cunning talent (move casting) aren't exactly popular.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'm all for 'skill moving' during instants/procs etc; they're not soming healers will have a great deal of though.
    Agreed. They haven't spoken about this as much, but I'd bet that requiring healing during movement will continue to exist, but it'll be greatly reduced; I'd imagine you'll see some healers having to learn stutter-step healing, or simply personals/raid CDs will be used to brute force those scenarios.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Wrathonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Port Charlotte
    Posts
    4,476
    If they are creative, there is a lot more they can make us do than move during combat. Frankly I am tired of fights with the only real difficulty is finding a safe place to stand. Vast majority of the Dark Shaman fight is moving, I wouldn't call it fun. While removing mobility from ranged and healers is a balance measure, I don't like it. But if they make encounters based around other things than just movement, I think it could be fun. Maybe more fights like High King Mulgor? That didn't really require movement. You had to have group comp and kill order down. It also took people that knew their class. Doing it in a pug was a nightmare, but a solid group made for a fun fight.
    -=Skyforge=- A new action based MMORPG from the Allods team and Obsidian Entertainment. MMO-C Skyforge thread.
    It's ok to not like things. Posting and you!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathonia View Post
    If they are creative, there is a lot more they can make us do than move during combat. Frankly I am tired of fights with the only real difficulty is finding a safe place to stand. Vast majority of the Dark Shaman fight is moving, I wouldn't call it fun. While removing mobility from ranged and healers is a balance measure, I don't like it. But if they make encounters based around other things than just movement, I think it could be fun. Maybe more fights like High King Mulgor? That didn't really require movement. You had to have group comp and kill order down. It also took people that knew their class. Doing it in a pug was a nightmare, but a solid group made for a fun fight.
    But that's the other issue here: They're trimming back class/raid utility which means there's less scope for this too.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hypetrain View Post
    yeah lets all be like the current shamans spamming everything while running, looks like a fun game for everyone. Homonization please!
    That's actually a pretty poor statement, considering elemental shamans shine only in fights that have lots of mobility. :P

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk vep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    1,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Where are those moments for you to let your class 'shine' going to come in
    They're not gonna come back. At least not to the point of what I've witnesses in TBC where the whole raid grp wiped except a warrior at like 3% of Shade of Aran. The warrior spammed execute and won. It was a good feeling.
    Or if a main tank died when a Ret Paladin would step in for even a few seconds so the druids could cres the tank.
    And even though it's reached new heights, I rather like the restless nights. It makes me wonder, makes me think there's more to this, I'm on the brink. It's not the fear of what's beyond, it's just that I might not respond! I have an interest, almost craving, would I like to get to far in?!

  10. #10
    encounters will be varied but we'll have to be more careful about how we handle them and move about without reducing our healing/dps/tanking ability/output.

    we got one too many tools to deal with such situations and just pass them off.

  11. #11
    So instead of making use of active utility, like Devotion Aura, Interupts, Knockbacks, Stuns etc; we're looking to keep DPS up by moving through procs/instants? Even though wiping to enrages is a thing of the past because that sucks when you beat all the mechanics?
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2014-04-15 at 11:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Thok doesn't equal interesting.

    Fights can actually be more interesting as the amount of utility we have now means the only things that can kill you are those that 1 shot you or 2 shot you.

    T11 (with no raid CDs and no mobility) had plenty of different and interesting encounters.

    Conclave of the winds was pretty unique.
    Maloriak, Ascendant Council and Cho'gall were all some of my favorite fights too.

  13. #13
    reducing utility and mobility means they couldn't "fix" pvp without fucking over PvE encounters

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Wrathonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Port Charlotte
    Posts
    4,476
    Quote Originally Posted by coldrain View Post
    reducing utility and mobility means they couldn't "fix" pvp without fucking over PvE encounters
    I just think they are too into the math of pve. I sometimes wonder if they know what fun is anymore. To me, casting and moving is fun. Balanced or not, I don't care. It's just plain enjoyable. Same with flying. I like flying. I don't care how it effects questing since I hate questing anyway. I have heard their reasons for both and I disagree with their reasons still. Some of their changes and the reasons behind them just seem to formulaic. I mean, is it really so wrong to want to have fun in a GAME?
    -=Skyforge=- A new action based MMORPG from the Allods team and Obsidian Entertainment. MMO-C Skyforge thread.
    It's ok to not like things. Posting and you!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rohno View Post
    That's actually a pretty poor statement, considering elemental shamans shine only in fights that have lots of mobility. :P
    Do you raid? Do you play any other class or spec besides ranged dps?

    Even if you only play ranged dps,

    Norurshen?
    Gala?
    Jug?
    Mala?
    Spoils?
    Thok?
    seigecrafter?
    Garry?
    Pokemon FC: 1091 - 8286 - 2221 Aman Add me

  16. #16
    No, it will mean more interesting encounters. They aren't removing all utility and all mobility. Ranged dps will still have some abilities they can use on the move (instants) which will make them think about how to maximise dps while moving instead of not having to worry about anything while moving. Utility is also alive and well but a bit weaker on dps, like the new Amplify Magic on mages where you can decide where it's most useful. Healers will have the job of keeping the raid alive instead of chaining raid cds across the entire raid. And they too will have to decide how to maintain throughput while moving instead of not having to worry about it at all. So yeah, it'll be more dynamic and fun, not less interesting.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Thok doesn't equal interesting.

    Fights can actually be more interesting as the amount of utility we have now means the only things that can kill you are those that 1 shot you or 2 shot you.

    T11 (with no raid CDs and no mobility) had plenty of different and interesting encounters.

    Conclave of the winds was pretty unique.
    Maloriak, Ascendant Council and Cho'gall were all some of my favorite fights too.
    Thok actually is an interesting example: Devotion Aura gave Paladins a time to shine with the interrupt prevention.

    Let's be clear on this; 'utility' isn't just about raidwide healing/mitigation cooldowns; it very often it includes CC, such as stuns/roots (Blackhorn, Siegecrafter, Lich King), Interrupts (Nefarion, Alysrazor, Garrosh), Knockbacks (again Siegecrafter), Slows (Magmaw); Targetted mitigation like BoP (Horridon, Thok); or movement increases (Gateway, Stampeding Roar).

    By removing and nerfing many of these things, they become less readily available and less dependable for a raid group to rely upon for a kill. That means the encounters simply can't be made to assume the same availability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbar View Post
    No, it will mean more interesting encounters. They aren't removing all utility and all mobility. Ranged dps will still have some abilities they can use on the move (instants) which will make them think about how to maximise dps while moving instead of not having to worry about anything while moving. Utility is also alive and well but a bit weaker on dps, like the new Amplify Magic on mages where you can decide where it's most useful. Healers will have the job of keeping the raid alive instead of chaining raid cds across the entire raid. And they too will have to decide how to maintain throughput while moving instead of not having to worry about it at all. So yeah, it'll be more dynamic and fun, not less interesting.
    Except that maximising DPS hasn't been a thing since Garalon. They just accepted there and then that wiping to an enrage despite beating the mechanics was lame. And it is.

  18. #18
    The last bossfight in which people had to use their class utility was High King Maulgar. I didn't notice any specific bossfights in MoP that required polymorphing, spellstealing, fearing, hamstringing, enslave demon, seduce, interrupt, sprint, tremor totem, or anything else. The warlock tanking required during TBC on some bosses (Leo and Illidan) was pretty cool too.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Thok doesn't equal interesting.

    Fights can actually be more interesting as the amount of utility we have now means the only things that can kill you are those that 1 shot you or 2 shot you.

    T11 (with no raid CDs and no mobility) had plenty of different and interesting encounters.

    Conclave of the winds was pretty unique.
    Maloriak, Ascendant Council and Cho'gall were all some of my favorite fights too.
    tier 11 with no raid CDs was hell on earth, simple as that. Nefarian for 25m? lol shock is a joke. Nefarian for 10m? Shit shit shit we need the next raid CD ready before we push. Actually, tier 11 was brutal on 10M in some cases because of the lack of raid CDs because of tuning.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Conqueror View Post
    The last bossfight in which people had to use their class utility was High King Maulgar. I didn't notice any specific bossfights in MoP that required polymorphing Faction Champions, spellstealing Jarraxxus, fearing Klaxxi, hamstringing Siegecrafter, enslave demon, seduce, interrupt Nefarion, Klaxxi, Garrosh, sprint Everything!, tremor totem Auriya, or anything else. The warlock tanking required during TBC on some bosses (Leo and Illidan) was pretty cool too.
    Non-exhaustive list by any means, those are just a few of the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •