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  1. #1

    Restoration druid and socket bonuses

    So I'm in the process in moving from being a faceroller to actuarry know wtf is going on in the game, be more able to push the right buttons at the right time and maybe some time in the future be ready for heroic raiding. Currently at ilvl550, haste build, seems to work ok.

    Newest discovery is that the whole stat weight system mrrobot and all similar systems are based on, doesn't work, since how much benefit each stat gives changes according to how high the other stats are, and also to some extent spell usage, thus making it encounter and playstyle specific.

    But most importantly here: I can't seem to make any calculations that concludes going for the red socket bonuses worthwhile. By manipulating stat weights in mrrobot and see how a non-intellect gem build would turn out for me:

    Raidbuffed spellpower with intellect gemming: 41.5k
    Raidbuffed spellpower with no intellect gems or slot bonuses: 39k

    This is a 6% reduction. 1% crit also goes away, which means loss of healing from the missing intellect will be 7%.

    The gain, however, is 8% mastery. Thus it is a good trade that can give me a slight boost to non-HoT healing and a significant boost to HoT-healing.


    Prove me wrong!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    Prove me wrong!
    No reason to, you're mostly right. Currently resto druids either gem full mastery or intelect/mastery, depending on the particular socket bonus. Mastery is better than Int on a 2:1 ratio, so keep that in mind when gemming.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire
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    Our stat weightings are close enough that you always want to go for socket bonuses. If you have to break socket bonuses to get to 13k haste it's probably a good idea to stay on 3k haste for a while longer.

  4. #4
    Let's look at some actual items instead of this very napkinny math that doesn't make a lot of sense.

    1 red socket: +60 Int bonus
    int/mastery gem vs. mastery gem = 140 Int vs. 160 Mastery -- big win for red socket bonus.

    2 red sockets: +120 Int bonus
    int/mastery gems vs. mastery gems = 280 Int vs. 320 Mastery -- same win for red socket bonus.

    3 red sockets: +180 Int bonus
    int/mastery gems vs. mastery gems = 420 Int vs. 480 Mastery -- same win for red socket bonus.

    In all cases, you get 0.875 Int for 1 Mastery. Since 0.875 Int is better than 1 Mastery, you should take all red socket bonuses (unless you need to gem straight haste for the cap). Helms and items with different-colored sockets are even clearer to go for the socket bonus. Ignoring Int socket bonuses is plain wrong, simple as that.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2014-04-09 at 10:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Man I'm a resto nub. I should be rolling int/mastery in all my reds over pure int? I should be more thorough in my sticky reviews I guess.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    Since 0.875 Int is better than 1 Mastery
    Would be great if you could show/explain/point me to somewhere this is proven.

    With 40K spellpower, if we disregard crit and existing mastery, which on my character sheet are low enough not to affect the conclusion, 1K intelligence gives 2.5% more healing, 1K mastery gives 2.1% more mastery - which gives 4.2% more healing from heal over time spells.

    With mastery builds mastery intelligence will be more effective since mastery will add relatively less and existing mastery gears up intelligence. But 4.2 is alot more than 2.5.

    PS To me it seems typical that more than 90% of a resto druid's healing comes from spells benefiting double from mastery. If that is correct only peculiar settings will make intelligence more powerful than mastery point by point. Crit presumably also becomes a competitor at high ilvls.
    Last edited by Teryx; 2014-04-09 at 11:33 PM.

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    The gain, however, is 8% mastery.
    Is it an eight percent gain in mastery or an eight percentage point gain in mastery? If you're sitting on ~40% raid buffed mastery already, going up to 48% is only a 5.7% increase over what you had previously.

    That's less than your anticipated gain from intellect. Unless you've got less than 15% raid buffed mastery, using orange gems in red sockets will give slightly better value.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  8. #8
    Before I answer your questions about the stat values, I think I found your problem. You got the mastery effect wrong if you think hots benefit twice as much as direct healing spells. Our mastery provides the same increase to all our spells, direct heals as much as hots. Look at the wording of our mastery:

    Your direct healing is increased by an additional 10% and casting your direct healing spells grants you an additional 10% bonus to periodic healing for 20s.
    So, direct heals get +Mastery% healing, and hots get +Mastery% healing if you cast a direct healing spell in the last 20s. There is no double-dipping in mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    Would be great if you could show/explain/point me to somewhere this is proven.
    This is actually quite easy to calculate. I didn't check your calculations, as they show I'm right already:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    With 40K spellpower, if we disregard crit and existing mastery, which on my character sheet are low enough not to affect the conclusion, 1K intelligence gives 2.5% more healing, 1K mastery gives 2.1% more mastery - which gives 4.2% more healing from heal over time spells.
    So you say you get 2.5% more healing from Int, and 2.1 more "Mastery-%". The last part of your conclusion is wrong, because 2.1 "Mastery-%" increase your healing by about 1.5% (assuming 40% mastery buffed). So you can see, the Int is a lot more powerful than the mastery.

    Here is a more detailed calculation (all values assume all raid buffs):

    1 Int = 1.169 SP
    at 50k SP ==> + 0.002338 % healing
    so 0.875 Int give + 0.002046 % healing

    1 Mastery = 1/480 Mastery%
    at 40% Mastery ==> + 0.001488 % healing
    at 30% Mastery ==> + 0.001603 % healing

    As you can see, 0.875 Int is a lot stronger than 1 Mastery. At 50k SP, 40% Mastery, 1 Int is 1.6 times stronger than 1 Mastery. Note that I left out the crit you get from Int (for brewety), so in reality Int is better than in this calculation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Unless you've got less than 15% raid buffed mastery, using orange gems in red sockets will give slightly better value.
    That's not possible, as you already get 10% passive and 5% from raid buffs. Just to play around a bit, at 30% buffed mastery (about 7k) you woud need something like 70k Spellpower buffed to make the next 1 Mastery better than the next 1 Int.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2014-04-10 at 03:52 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    You got the mastery effect wrong if you think hots benefit twice as much as direct healing spells. Our mastery provides the same increase to all our spells, direct heals as much as hots.
    Aha! Yes, indeed. Thanks alot for clarifying!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    1 Int = 1.169 SP
    Yes - I wrongly presumed 1 int = 1 SP, but shouldn't it be 1 5% from leather, 5% from mark of the wild, 10% from spellpower buff to a total of 1.21 or 1.29 with Heart of the Wild?

    - - - Updated - - -

    This also means in proving grounds and for challenge modes you should not gem mastery, pure intellect is better. Yellow socket bonuses should be taken with haste.

  10. #10
    I just want to point out that the different spells have different SP scaling:

    Direct heals
    Regrowth - 191.6% SP with glyph or 95.8% SP and 21.9% SP HoT
    Healing Touch - 186% SP
    Swiftmend - 129% SP
    Wild Mushroom: Bloom - 124.2% SP
    Nourish - 61.4% SP

    HoTs
    Efflorescence - 129% SP per tick
    Rejuvenation - 39.6% SP and 39.6% SP per tick
    Lifebloom - 85.5% SP per stack
    Wild Growth - 64.4% SP
    Tranquility - 83.5% SP and 14.2% SP per tick

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by adynn View Post
    Our stat weightings are close enough that you always want to go for socket bonuses. If you have to break socket bonuses to get to 13k haste it's probably a good idea to stay on 3k haste for a while longer.
    This is generally true, but if you can't reforge below 7k or so, and only have to forgo 1 int socket bonus, and a couple spirit and/or haste ones, and if you still have >4500 mastery and >10kish spirit, it might be worthwhile go still go for the 13163 bp. It's best to evaluate gear on a case-by-case basis, rather than a set ilevel or "never skip a socket bonus."

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    Yes - I wrongly presumed 1 int = 1 SP, but shouldn't it be 1 5% from leather, 5% from mark of the wild, 10% from spellpower buff to a total of 1.21 or 1.29 with Heart of the Wild?
    That's a tricky question (and the answer is no), but I can only give you a technical answer. Since the 10% SP buff is multiplicative, it affects everything in the equation, so you can't see that as a bonus to only Int. It simply increases all healing done by 10% (except for the base heal), just like mastery or SP itself increase all healing done. You could just see it as another Naturalist that doesn't affect the base heal. Basically, it just means that the relative power of Int and mastery is the same with and without the SP buff present (except for the base heal). I'll give a simplified example of how you calculate the amount a spell heals (disregarding crit):

    Heal amount = SpellCoefficient * (11k + SpellPower * SPBuff ) * Mastery * Naturalist

    The 11k accounts for the heal's base heal (which is about 11000*SpellCoefficient for most heals). In regard to Pusekatten's post, you can also see here that different spells having different SP scaling doesn't matter for Int vs. mastery, since it's all multiplicative. So, a more concrete example:

    Healing Touch heal amount = 186% * (11k + SP * 1.1) * Mastery * 1.1
    With roughly my values: 1.86 * (11k + 60k * 1.1) * 1.35 * 1.1 = ~210k

    I hope this could somehow answer your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    This also means in proving grounds and for challenge modes you should not gem mastery, pure intellect is better. Yellow socket bonuses should be taken with haste.
    That is correct. And you should still get all Int socket bonuses.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2014-04-10 at 03:54 PM.

  13. #13
    Thalur, I agree with most off what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure the formula should be like this:

    Heal amount = (SpellCoefficient * SpellPower * SPBuff + Base Heal) * Mastery * Naturalist

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pusekatten View Post
    Thalur, I agree with most off what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure the formula should be like this:

    Heal amount = (SpellCoefficient * SpellPower * SPBuff + Base Heal) * Mastery * Naturalist
    It's the same thing. Base heal is equal to 11k * Coefficient for basically all heals.

  15. #15
    Keyboard Turner Kazistrasz's Avatar
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    Regrowth doesn't become 191.6% from 95.8% when you glyph it just because it's always going to crit.

    The spell is calculated like this without the glyph:

    ((9813 to 10955 base heal) + (spell power * 95.8%)) * (1 + mastery %) * (2 * (1 + trinket amp %) IF CRIT) and the additional HoT for (2361 + (spell power * 21.9%)) * (1 + mastery % WITH BUFF) over 6 seconds, adjusted by haste.

    The spell is calculated like this with the glyph:

    ((9813 to 10955 base heal) + (spell power * 95.8%)) * (1 + mastery %) * (2 * (1 + trinket amp %) GUARANTEED CRIT)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    Since the 10% SP buff is multiplicative, it affects everything in the equation, so you can't see that as a bonus to only Int.
    Slightly confused by what you write, and I really appreciate you trying to explain.

    The question was how much more spellpower you get with 1 more int. Naturalist isn't relevant, mastery isn't relevant, how much more healing you end up getting isn't relevant, the only factors relevant are buffs to intellect and spellpower: 5% to int and 10% to spellpower from raid buffs, 5% to int from leather. 1.05*1.05*1.1=1.21. So, if you add 1 point of intellect, presuming all raid buffs and not Heart of the Wild, you gain 1.21 points of spellpower. This is the SpellPower * SPBuff part of the expression used in the posts above, with intellect and its buffs replacing of spellpower. How is this wrong, and what's the math behind the 1.169 figure?


    The base heal - good point. Makes intellect less potential especially at lower gear levels, and mastery stronger. I doubt the effect is strong enough to change the conclusions in the gear settings we are discussing here, but it could be fun to do the math based on a proving grounds combat log.
    Last edited by Teryx; 2014-04-11 at 12:34 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    The question was how much more spellpower you get with 1 more int.
    Actually, what we really want to know is by how much % our spellpower increases with 1 more int. And for that, the SP buff is irrelevant, because SP-Gain * 100 / prevSP = SP-Gain * SP-Buff * 100 / (prevSP * SP-Buff). Where you are right is that if you compare your 1 new int with your current fully buffed SP (including SP-Buff), you need to factor in the *1.1 coefficient. Maybe this is what caused the confusion.
    I left the SP buff out of the calculations above, 50k SP is without the SP buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    The base heal - good point. Makes intellect less potential especially at lower gear levels, and mastery stronger. I doubt the effect is strong enough to change the conclusions in the gear settings we are discussing here, but it could be fun to do the math based on a proving grounds combat log.
    Due to the additive scaling of Int, it is really strong with low gear levels and gets weaker the more you have. At low gear levels (<500), it's even 1 Int > 2 Mastery. (Theoretically, if you are at 0 SP, you need 10k SP to double your healing - you would need something like 50k Mastery to do that.)

    And you don't really want to do math "based on a combat log", you want the math to predict what the combat log will show.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2014-04-11 at 09:25 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    And you don't really want to do math "based on a combat log", you want the math to predict what the combat log will show.
    Math can never predict the circumstances of the battle, and the need for the different spells.

    In proving grounds, on my character:
    Base heal on rejuv is 4.2K, and it heals for 13.2K, so 68% of the healing comes from spellpower. One intellect gem on 160 will increase spellpower by 160*1.21 = 194 which is pretty much 1% increase in total spellpower - on my character sheet it is at 19.9K with a few intellect gems. Since 68% of rejuvenation healing comes from spellpower, 1 brilliant gem wil add approximately 0.7% to rejuvenation's healing.

    One mastery gem adds 320 mastey, which is 0.67 added percentage points to mastery. Mastery is already at 23%, meaning this is an increase in healing output of (1.2367/1.23)-1 = 0.55%.

    This makes intellect, for rejuv, with my proving grounds gear, 27% more powerful than mastery.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Teryx View Post
    Slightly confused by what you write, and I really appreciate you trying to explain.

    The question was how much more spellpower you get with 1 more int. Naturalist isn't relevant, mastery isn't relevant, how much more healing you end up getting isn't relevant, the only factors relevant are buffs to intellect and spellpower: 5% to int and 10% to spellpower from raid buffs, 5% to int from leather. 1.05*1.05*1.1=1.21. So, if you add 1 point of intellect, presuming all raid buffs and not Heart of the Wild, you gain 1.21 points of spellpower. This is the SpellPower * SPBuff part of the expression used in the posts above, with intellect and its buffs replacing of spellpower. How is this wrong, and what's the math behind the 1.169 figure?


    The base heal - good point. Makes intellect less potential especially at lower gear levels, and mastery stronger. I doubt the effect is strong enough to change the conclusions in the gear settings we are discussing here, but it could be fun to do the math based on a proving grounds combat log.
    not really, the 1.169 comes from the spell power + the crit, spell power is just the normalized value, doesn't really matter where you calculate it as long as you calculate all of them at the same point of the equation.

    the 1.169 comes from 1 + crit value (which is 0.169 this is at a certain gear level though, worth less with more crit, more with less crit.)

    on a side note: all stats lose value in relation to eachother if they are stacked too high, while they will gain value when other stats rises, quite interesting every expansion you see the values go from ~10% to 30-40% of each stat, while the coefficients rise the amount of SP rises too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    on a side note: all stats lose value in relation to eachother if they are stacked too high, while they will gain value when other stats rises, quite interesting every expansion you see the values go from ~10% to 30-40% of each stat, while the coefficients rise the amount of SP rises too.
    I think it's really strange, after becoming aware of this, that mrrobot and the big popular guides still use static stat weights and absolute stat priorities.

    Anyways, an easy and good method to see what stat you will benefit the most for, is to check what rejuv ticks for, preferrably in a setting where you have the raid buffs, with an intellect gem or a mastery gem in a prismatic belt socket. You could also compare it to an empty socket by putting in a meaningless gem (pvp power for example). You will not be able to evaluate the increased crit chance from intellect, nor the increased power of mastery when trinkets proc, so 100% accurate it won't be, but far better than napkin math.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    the 1.169 comes from 1 + crit value (which is 0.169 this is at a certain gear level though, worth less with more crit, more with less crit.)
    I thought it took 2500 intellect to get 1 % crit. 16.9% seems very high.

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