Fathers Sue Utah Over Unfair Adoption Laws

[dehotz]

Dad should get first crack unless he has explicitly waived his parental rights or had them stripped from him via some court order. If he can be liable for child support for a child he has no prior knowledge of, and he can, then he should have the right to veto anything like this provided he is willing to care for the child himself.

[Flutterguy]

Dad should get first crack unless he has explicitly waived his parental rights or had them stripped from him via some court order. If he can be liable for child support for a child he has no prior knowledge of, and he can, then he should have the right to veto anything like this provided he is willing to care for the child himself.

This is also a grim fact that should be known. Even if the father is unaware of a child's birth, he can be liable for child support and it is retroactive. There have been terrible cases where even a sperm donor can be hit with child support. So yes, it should be made aware to any man that they have a child if at the very least so they can prepare for a potential financial hit from a zealous judge.

[Forgettable]

The key pattern seems to be that the men were not married to the kids' mothers. Lacking that legal link, the law treats the mother as the sole legal guardian and the father has no rights.

I think this is a big hole in our laws and legal precedents. If we say that a man has responsibility for a child he fathers (which we do whenever we compel a man to pay child support), then he must also have some rights regarding that child's upbringing.

I was going to say this, but I see someone already beat me to it.

[Masark]

There have been terrible cases where even a sperm donor can be hit with child support

Wasn't there such a case in Utah not along ago?

[Danuru]

Being raised in the LDS church, im not at all suprised. Generally speaking Mormons consider non-members to be almost inferior as humans, and if they can put a child with a member family that isn't blood related and will be raised in the church, rather than a unaffliated blood father, they will do so everytime.

I knew a girl who was a member and got pregnant by a non-member. Her family refused to allow the father to see the child and were going to put the child up for adoption, the father got so fustrated he ended up killing the girl.

Perhaps the family was right about a guy who deals with frustration by turning to murder.

You have my respect tony!
I wasn't raised in the LDS church but I have lived in Utah for over a decade so I've learned a lot about the religion. I knew two Mormons in high school who killed themselves, speculatively because of the pressure of family and not being in line with their beliefs. This is kind of off topic, but at the same time kind of illustrates the mentality of the church and why this is the only state in the country that practices such laws.

Yes.. From a couple incidents, we should deduce that all mormons are either evil and oppressive, or depressed to the point of suicidal. All people of all beliefs have both the good and the bad. And it's foolish to generalize off of a couple examples.

[Flutterguy]

Wasn't there such a case in Utah not along ago?

Not sure about Utah, but there was one in Pennsylvania.

[Sunseeker]

If he doesn't know at all and it isn't going to involve him financially, I really don't see the big deal.

If he doesn't know that HIS CHILD IS BEING GIVEN UP WITHOUT HIS CONSENT, it's not a big deal? Who the fuck cares if it's involving him financially or not? They're literally kidnapping his child.

[-aiko-]

Yes.. From a couple incidents, we should deduce that all mormons are either evil and oppressive, or depressed to the point of suicidal. All people of all beliefs have both the good and the bad. And it's foolish to generalize off of a couple examples.

No, not evil. I've lived half of my life time in Utah and have seen enough however to tell me that they are very group-centric. You can and will be alienated as a non-Mormon in Mormon neighborhoods. Sometimes to extreme degrees.

[Forgettable]

That has yet to be established.

Just because you don't believe in morality or immorality doesn't mean the rest of society takes the same stance. Laws *should be* created for the benefit of citizens, and many laws are based on the morals that society has adopted as whole.

[minteK917]

Sticking a child with a single parent usually isn't a great idea if it can be avoided either. If he knows the child exists, then sure, he should get first crack at it. If he doesn't, I see no reason to compel people to have contact with someone over an issue that ultimately has no potential to harm them.

Look at this clown, only fathers can be bad, not mothers. Im sure if mothers could give birth without knowing it (lol) youd play the same pathetic tune. Joking you wouldnt. It should be a a federal offense to not notify the father he has a child period, not even counting this topic. Its the fathers child as much as its the mothers child, period.

[Crissi]

I think if the woman doesn't want it, but the father does he should always get first choice unless he is an unfit parent (financially or otherwise).

However, if a woman doesnt know who the father is because of lots of one night stands and such, and so cannot easily determine the father, she should be allowed to give it up without being forced to go through a long process of finding and dna testing every dude she slept with.

[theostrichsays]

If he doesn't know at all and it isn't going to involve him financially, I really don't see the big deal.

If the father didn't know, and literally never will I will agree, hell the mother may not know who the father is, so in that stance your correct.
Unwed couples (whether dating or just two people who had sex) who don't remain together during pregnancy and the mother puts the child up for adoption with the father having 0 legal recourse isn't fair by any stretch. I would like to believe you wouldn't argue that a father has no emotional attachment to a child during pregnancy, but at the birth the mother can refuse to have the father on the birth certificate, then have the child put up for adoption without granting the father a dna test or anything to establish paternity and grant him right to the child.

[Danuru]

No, not evil. I've lived half of my life time in Utah and have seen enough however to tell me that they are very group-centric. You can and will be alienated as a non-Mormon in Mormon neighborhoods. Sometimes to extreme degrees.

I will admit that in Utah, Mormon's do tend to be a bit blind to the outside world. But outside the state ,where the majority of Mormons actually are, they are placed into a minority role and are a lot less exclusive in their social groups.

[Wildtree]

Being raised in the LDS church, im not at all suprised. Generally speaking Mormons consider non-members to be almost inferior as humans, and if they can put a child with a member family that isn't blood related and will be raised in the church, rather than a unaffliated blood father, they will do so everytime.

I knew a girl who was a member and got pregnant by a non-member. Her family refused to allow the father to see the child and were going to put the child up for adoption, the father got so fustrated he ended up killing the girl.

Holy fuck..
Those are truly fucked up laws and even more fucked up people there..

[Bristae]

It's very wrong for true Mormons the suitable home for a child would be comprised of 3+ parents 1 father and varying number of mothers.

While you were trying to be funny with that comment, it is completely off base. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not practice polygamy anymore and hasn't since before the turn of the 20th Century. Now there are off-shoots of the church that still practice (illegally) around Utah, Nevada, and Arizona, They are mostly part of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or FLDS. They are NOT apart of the Church in Salt Lake City and if they were they would be ex-communicated for the practice. This story is about the LDS, NOT the FLDS

[Stir]

Nixx... Why shouldn't men have reproductive rights? Why shouldn't they have a right to their own child?
I don't even WANT children... But if I were to have one, I would love it with all my heart. My child, my genetic heritage. My interests are invested in that child.
Sure, you can say 'but if he doesn't know it, he's never really had it in the first place...' But that is pretty much an illusion based on misinformation. It's like a magic trick. Just because you don't spot the tripple lift doesn't mean that's not what the magician did.

[Flutterguy]

If you explain why there are undesirable outcomes, further adding that an act is immoral is worthless and nothing but emotional fluff. That's a fair argument though.

And lying is a more complicated issue, but this isn't lying by any useful definition.



I didn't deny that people value it. I questioned the value.



I didn't say only mothers can be bad, but if the baby is being put up for adoption, then the mother isn't in the picture anyways. It actually has nothing to do with the parenting skill of either individual.



There are many systems of morality, even among people who recognize such a system exists. It is not enough to assert that any action is or isn't moral, as the "truth" of that statement varies from person to person. Morals that are not or cannot be reasoned for are of no value.



Kidnapping is a problem because it causes harm and emotional distress. "Kidnapping" a child you don't know exists does not cause you harm or emotional distress.

You imply the father would never know...that is until the child as an adult searches for their birth parents and discovers this father with the assumption that the child's father never wanted them only to find out the father never knew they existed. I'm sure that father then would not suffer at all emotionally at the thought that they had a chance to raise a child but were denied that chance by never being told.

Now if you think it's unusual for an adopted child to seek out their birth parents, you're in the dark about a very active and profitable industry built around doing just that.

[Sunseeker]

Kidnapping is a problem because it causes harm and emotional distress. "Kidnapping" a child you don't know exists does not cause you harm or emotional distress.

Until ya know, you find out.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Cool, let's play the abortion game. You argue Einsteindad and I'll argue Hitlerdad.

....Wtf are you going on about? I'm not even referencing Einstein or any great figure.

[Stir]

It's not about not having reproductive rights.

Maybe not, but that is what it amounts to. If the father can be bypassed in such a matter, then he effectively does not have any reproductive rights. And that is problematic.