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  1. #1

    Warriors lack in group buff department

    Hey all.
    I've jumped back in my warr to get ready for the coming expansion, and I noticed that we only bring 1 buff to the raid, either Battle or Commanding Shout. Other classes bring 2 or even 3! I know my Shaman brings 3 passive ones, my Feral druid 2, DK 2, etc. TLDR almost everyone else brings more than 1.
    I remember Fury warriors used to bring the 5% crit buff, I wonder why they removed that...
    Anywhoo, with the advent of ability pruning and removing alot of utility spells from most classes, should we be entitled (might be too strong a word) with another group buff? Maybe one of the new stats they are introducing. Maybe:

    Guts and Glory: Your Shout abilities also increase Readiness for all raid and party members within 100 yards by X. OR
    Warpath: Empowers all nearby raid and party members, increasing Multistrike by X. OR
    Commanding Presence: Motivates all raid and party members with your presence, increasing Amplify (is this still one of the stats?) b X.
    Last edited by Terminal Lance; 2014-04-16 at 12:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Ah you are talking about WoD.

    Never mind.

    Historically speaking Warriors always been shit in the buff department. This only changed recently. I guess Blizz was fed up with Warrior utility.

    DPS Warriors still keep Rallying Cry as a raid cooldown for the time being.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2014-04-16 at 02:47 AM.
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  3. #3
    The Patient
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    i think blizzard is moving away from that kind of design, with recent changes to warlocks HS and gateways id say its safe to assume so. not that your ideas are bad.

  4. #4
    In addition to the previous post
    Mass spell reflect
    Shattering throw
    Sunder
    Colossus Smash
    Mortal strike
    Stampeding Shout(symbiosis)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dean771 View Post
    In addition to the previous post
    Mass spell reflect
    Shattering throw
    Sunder
    Colossus Smash
    Mortal strike
    Stampeding Shout(symbiosis)
    The last 3 provide no group buffs in pve :|

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    The last 3 provide no group buffs in pve :|
    Sunder is most definetly a group buff in PvE.

    Warriors can fill 3 of the debuff/buff slots. Maybe a little lower than some classes, but most only bring 3-5 of the possibles so not really that lacking, and warriors do have some unique, currently anyway, utility spells and buffs such as banners, rallying cry etc. We dont know what the buff debuff side of the game will be like in WoD so hard to comment on that yet.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    The last 3 provide no group buffs in pve :|
    Sunder Armor does provide a benefit to other physical damage dealing classes, such as ferals/rogues/hunters etc. Mortal Strike healing reduction is irrelevant in PvP, as is Spell Reflect. Colossus Smash provides no group benefit, but it can Sunder if it's glyphed.

    But really so far the only real utility buff DPS Warriors seem to have available in WoD is Rallying Cry. The loss of both Skull Banner and Demo Banner are pretty excessive. We should be able to keep one of either. Even if they are reduced in effectiveness by 50% for the group.
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  8. #8
    High Overlord Toolt's Avatar
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    I think its way to early for you to say this.
    We dont know the up coming expansion or what it is missing yet. Before you actually have tried beta i cant take you serious.
    And as for now, in PVE warriors bring a huge amount of dps. Warriors are and can be in top of the charts on many fights, and in PVP, warriors are to strong for their skill lvl.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Toolt View Post
    I think its way to early for you to say this.
    We dont know the up coming expansion or what it is missing yet. Before you actually have tried beta i cant take you serious.
    And as for now, in PVE warriors bring a huge amount of dps. Warriors are and can be in top of the charts on many fights, and in PVP, warriors are to strong for their skill lvl.
    Warrior DPS is only top of the meter or great when you have 2 heroic weapons or are nearing BiS, until then warrior dps is sort of middle of the pack so I dont know what you're trying to say by this, that warrior dps is so great we dont need as much utility?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Sunder Armor does provide a benefit to other physical damage dealing classes, such as ferals/rogues/hunters etc. Mortal Strike healing reduction is irrelevant in PvP, as is Spell Reflect. Colossus Smash provides no group benefit, but it can Sunder if it's glyphed.

    But really so far the only real utility buff DPS Warriors seem to have available in WoD is Rallying Cry. The loss of both Skull Banner and Demo Banner are pretty excessive. We should be able to keep one of either. Even if they are reduced in effectiveness by 50% for the group.
    Everything that was struck is being removed in WoD. Druids lose symbiosis, shattering throw loses its raid utility, and sunder armor is being cut. This left the last 3 as Colossus smash, which is personal, Mortal strike, useless in pve, and MSR, which is also useless in pve.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    Everything that was struck is being removed in WoD. Druids lose symbiosis, shattering throw loses its raid utility, and sunder armor is being cut.
    Sure I was replying to the post that listed current group buffs though,

    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    This left the last 3 as Colossus smash, which is personal, Mortal strike, useless in pve, and MSR, which is also useless in pve.
    Doesn't Colossus smash apply Physical Vulnerability? who mentioned pve? mortal strike is a significant group buff that is irrelevant is most pve

  12. #12
    I do not want to live in a world (of warcraft) in which every class has their buff, every class applies their debuff, every class can multidot, every class has good burst, every class has good sustained aoe, etc etc.

    Warriors do not need to have a bunch of group buffs to be included in raids. My raid is going to keep bringing me because i bring the deeps. Take away all warriors' raid buffs and debuffs and give me more deeps for all i care.


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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dean771 View Post
    Sure I was replying to the post that listed current group buffs though,
    What post

    Quote Originally Posted by dean771 View Post
    Doesn't Colossus smash apply Physical Vulnerability? who mentioned pve? mortal strike is a significant group buff that is irrelevant is most pve
    Quote Originally Posted by Terminal Lance View Post
    and I noticed that we only bring 1 buff to the raid
    The op did.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    Warriors do not need to have a bunch of group buffs to be included in raids. My raid is going to keep bringing me because i bring the deeps. Take away all warriors' raid buffs and debuffs and give me more deeps for all i care.
    That was the WotLK design policy. Much of MoP Warrior dps was either bad or underwhelming. Especially in competitive raiding. Which relegated Warriors either to tanking or being a banner bitch/cry bitch. Back in ToT for example it was fucking bad to have melee in the raid, bringing DPS warriors (which were the worst by far) was just a waste of a raid spot, so Warrior were being benched left and right.

    Also believe it or not, some people actually find group gameplay fun. One of the major shortcomings of Warriors was always the fact that they were essentially useless for the group. You as a Warrior could pretty much raid without raid frames because you didn't fucking need to know what was going on with the group, as there was nothing you could damn do about it. You just did your rotation and /yawn.

    In the current design of the Warrior, utility adds an extra layer to your gameplay which makes it even more fun to play. You are in the raid's cooldown rotation with Rallying Cry/Demo Banner, you can either be part of the raid's tank cooldown rotation with Vigilance, or you can use it on raid members who need external cooldowns, with Vigilance or Safeguard, you are part of the Raid Dps cooldown rotation with Skull Banner and you bring the Stuns/Interrupts to Add fights. Utility wise I would compare today's Warriors to WotLK era utility Ret Paladins. Possibly even better.

    That is helluva thing to lose. Sometimes DPS is not everything. Today a Fury Warrior who does top DPS and uses all his cooldowns effectively is one of the hardest classes/specs to play in the game.
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  15. #15
    I believe in TBC Arms Warriors had a debuff that increased physical damage by 4% (Blood Frenzy?) that no one else had at the time. I made the switch from Fury to Arms just to give my guild that debuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    I do not want to live in a world (of warcraft) in which every class has their buff, every class applies their debuff, every class can multidot, every class has good burst, every class has good sustained aoe, etc etc.

    Warriors do not need to have a bunch of group buffs to be included in raids. My raid is going to keep bringing me because i bring the deeps. Take away all warriors' raid buffs and debuffs and give me more deeps for all i care.
    I agree with this. Sadly, Blizzard doesn't. I understand they want to promote a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy but in my opinion, having class-specific debufs adds flavor and challenge to the game.

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denkou View Post
    I believe in TBC Arms Warriors had a debuff that increased physical damage by 4% (Blood Frenzy?) that no one else had at the time. I made the switch from Fury to Arms just to give my guild that debuff.


    I agree with this. Sadly, Blizzard doesn't. I understand they want to promote a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy but in my opinion, having class-specific debufs adds flavor and challenge to the game.
    You can have flavor and not have something too powerful. It's gonna take some very interesting/ingenius ideas to get to that point.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That was the WotLK design policy. Much of MoP Warrior dps was either bad or underwhelming. Especially in competitive raiding. Which relegated Warriors either to tanking or being a banner bitch/cry bitch. Back in ToT for example it was fucking bad to have melee in the raid, bringing DPS warriors (which were the worst by far) was just a waste of a raid spot, so Warrior were being benched left and right.

    Also believe it or not, some people actually find group gameplay fun. One of the major shortcomings of Warriors was always the fact that they were essentially useless for the group. You as a Warrior could pretty much raid without raid frames because you didn't fucking need to know what was going on with the group, as there was nothing you could damn do about it. You just did your rotation and /yawn.

    In the current design of the Warrior, utility adds an extra layer to your gameplay which makes it even more fun to play. You are in the raid's cooldown rotation with Rallying Cry/Demo Banner, you can either be part of the raid's tank cooldown rotation with Vigilance, or you can use it on raid members who need external cooldowns, with Vigilance or Safeguard, you are part of the Raid Dps cooldown rotation with Skull Banner and you bring the Stuns/Interrupts to Add fights. Utility wise I would compare today's Warriors to WotLK era utility Ret Paladins. Possibly even better.

    That is helluva thing to lose. Sometimes DPS is not everything. Today a Fury Warrior who does top DPS and uses all his cooldowns effectively is one of the hardest classes/specs to play in the game.
    warriors weren't useless in ToT. they were suboptimal (just like every other melee) but a good warrior was just as useful as any other melee (not very). the reason you didn't want warriors in ToT was their survivability. it was dog shit compared to every other melee class.

    it wasn't a problem with warriors. it was (and is) a problem with how retardedly good ranged classes are right now (and have been for years now). there's no penalties for movement, there's no limited resources to make ranged classes stop and regen, so they're basically melee that can attack from 40 yards away with zero downtime and able to avoid mechanics by strafing.

    Another thing. Warriors always had lots of responsibilities to help their raid. In TBC we didn't have rally/banners, but we had sunders (only warriors could apply), thunderclap (only warriors could apply), demo shout (only-- you get it.), intervene (which believe it or not can be used effectively without safeguard, you just need to be a little creative), mocking blow, blood frenzy debuff, mortal strike debuff, battle shout. etc etc.

    It was only when our class was homogenized into oblivion that we started to be a non-necessary class, but i can promise you, if you have a good warrior in your raid, you will never sit them. There will always be a use for our skillset no matter how watered down it gets.
    Last edited by Eranthe; 2014-04-19 at 01:07 AM.


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  18. #18
    I'm undecided if I would like warriors to move in a "Commander" RP role with banners and inspirations etc, or a "Berserker" RP role with selfish intentions etc. From a PvE standpoint, I like stacking buffs and raid wide cooldowns, as they make the fight more interesting. From a PvP standpoint they are annoying and would rather they were all gone.

    Only thing I can trust is that warriors will be in raids as either tank or dps, because that is blizzards focus.

  19. #19
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagd View Post
    Only thing I can trust is that warriors will be in raids as either tank or dps, because that is blizzards focus.
    I am so confused.

    What else would they be? Healers?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I am so confused.

    What else would they be? Healers?
    i think he might be hoping for some sort of utility bard battlecry thing


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