Stance of the Fierce Tiger now increases the energy cost of Jab by 10.

[LexZombie13]

What teh hell is this? Combo Breaker now has an 8% proc chance, down from 12%. and this? >.> No... just no blizz.

[Valsh]

Datamined changes are useless without context. As is complaining about them.

[Woceip]

'tis true. You won't know what it's like 'til it's live (or at least beta), so chillax.

[Totaltotemic]

Because having an effective haste cap of 20% is really good for the game and it feels so awesome to have someone use Bloodlust/Heroism and instantly have more energy than you could possibly use even if you have zero haste.

[Jayma]

I have a hard time seeing how mastery and haste will be anywhere near each other in value

[tachycardias]

These will not be the only balance changes. Other classes have changed too. As long as damage remains relatively similar to other classes it doesn't matter.

[TheWindWalker]

Because having an effective haste cap of 20% is really good for the game and it feels so awesome to have someone use Bloodlust/Heroism and instantly have more energy than you could possibly use even if you have zero haste.

Okay, I'm clearly misinterpreting you here. I thought you were one of the major proponents of "11-12k haste or you're doing it wrong" and yet having an increase to the cost of our only energy spender isn't something that sounds bad to you (barring no extra context for 6.0, atm) because... "I have too much energy during bloodlust, anyway?"

Why were people ever stacking Haste that high if they had too much energy to begin with?

[Hinalover]

Okay, I'm clearly misinterpreting you here. I thought you were one of the major proponents of "11-12k haste or you're doing it wrong" and yet having an increase to the cost of our only energy spender isn't something that sounds bad to you (barring no extra context for 6.0, atm) because... "I have too much energy during bloodlust, anyway?"

Why were people ever stacking Haste that high if they had too much energy to begin with?

The main reason is the fact that we were not using FoF that often; due to grounding, very little benefit when used properly; and thus we were compensating with a higher haste build to generate more chi for BoK and RSK. With FoF being so much more powerful in WoD, we will want to use it more often, thus initially lowering our haste cap (to about 20% from initial reactions). With the latest changes; and don't quote me on this since I haven't ran the numbers yet; our cap would be close to 40%. This is not taking into account Readiness by any stretch of the imagination though which will help in lowering our haste cap.

[Totaltotemic]

Okay, I'm clearly misinterpreting you here. I thought you were one of the major proponents of "11-12k haste or you're doing it wrong" and yet having an increase to the cost of our only energy spender isn't something that sounds bad to you (barring no extra context for 6.0, atm) because... "I have too much energy during bloodlust, anyway?"

Why were people ever stacking Haste that high if they had too much energy to begin with?

Haste is the best stat, even when it's functionally worthless for 40 seconds out of every fight. Needing 28% haste to reach the point where you have all of the energy you could ever use is okay in the MoP model where the only thing that increases energy is haste.

In WoD though, FoF will be used on cooldown, period. Energizing Brew granting 15% Multistrike during its effect will make us want to use it on cooldown as well. Even with zero Readiness, 20% haste would make us hit that point where we have more energy than we know what to do with. Keep in mind that 20% is only 8500 rating in MoP. Now, add Readiness to the mix. It reduces the cooldown of both FoF and EB, making it have the same kind of effect haste has where it limits the total amount of energy that can be used via FoF and also increases the amount of energy available through EB. Suddenly we're looking at a world where 4500 haste and 4000 Readiness caps us on energy.

Now imagine a world where we can't go over 8500 combined Haste/Readiness, reforging doesn't exist, and gems are more scarce. You'd be screaming by the 2nd tier of the expansion when you literally cannot wear more than two or three pieces of gear that have haste or Readiness on them, all trinket procs that grant haste and Readiness are worthless, and Bloodlust/Heroism does absolutely nothing for WW. It would basically be the new hit/expertise, but without reforging.

In a vacuum, 50 energy cost Jab would be kind of awkward in MoP where we avoid Ascension like the plague and AoC isn't good for other reasons. Throw in FoF on cooldown, EB, Readiness, and no reforging, and we've got a problem on our hands if Jab is still only 40 cost.

[Hinalover]

Well I am trying to work on updating the old Windwalker Energy spreadsheet with the 6.0 changes. Still a work in progress. But from what I can tell, the latest changes slowed down monks by about 15%. Before we were getting about 57 attacks per minute. In my current gear, updated with WoD stats:

http://wod.wowhead.com/list=1153781/...-equipment-set

I'm looking at about 50 attacks per minute with Ascension, 48 attacks with Chi Brew and Power Strikes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&usp=sharing

[Totaltotemic]

Well I am trying to work on updating the old Windwalker Energy spreadsheet with the 6.0 changes. Still a work in progress. But from what I can tell, the latest changes slowed down monks by about 15%. Before we were getting about 57 attacks per minute. In my current gear, updated with WoD stats:

http://wod.wowhead.com/list=1153781/...-equipment-set

I'm looking at about 50 attacks per minute with Ascension, 47 attacks with Chi Brew.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&usp=sharing

This is a rough calculation, but taking that spare GCDs/Min and counting one Jab as 2 GCDs (ignores Combo Breaker but whatever), an extra 258 energy/min is required, or 4.3 energy/sec, which is 43% haste, or an extra 18275 haste rating.

If I toss in Combo Breaker (16% chance to be an extra GCD, so 1 Jab = 2.16 GCDs), it's almost exactly 40% haste to get back to GCD filling, or 17k haste rating. So we're talking almost 30k haste to cap out, or 73% haste on top of the 47% readiness you have there? That seems like reasonable room to allow for trinkets and Bloodlust.

[Callimonk]

I came to post basically what TT has already stated: we're already looking at even more jabjabjabjabiness in WoD without these changes. And honestly, a nerf to Jab is only a nerf in the sense that yah, it's less BoKs... but again, as already stated, we'll be using FoF and EB on cooldown.

Honestly, it does kinda give one that sinking feeling to see this change, but I can't imagine the amount of carpal tunnel I'd have otherwise.

[Gulvan]

I came to post basically what TT has already stated: we're already looking at even more jabjabjabjabiness in WoD without these changes. And honestly, a nerf to Jab is only a nerf in the sense that yah, it's less BoKs... but again, as already stated, we'll be using FoF and EB on cooldown.

Honestly, it does kinda give one that sinking feeling to see this change, but I can't imagine the amount of carpal tunnel I'd have otherwise.

The one item no one has talked about which has me curious is that the boost to FoF plus the energy increase also nerfs our TEB generation. Maybe 5-6 stacks per minute? Could see 30-40% uptime instead of current 60%ish if you are lucky. What this means is that you are going to pool TEB more just for the FoF usage and never outside unless going to cap at 20 stacks.

[Hinalover]

They could very well lower the number of chi per TeB back down to 3. Would bring the uptime back up. But that is normally adjusted when they are tuning damage as well, so not likely to see in the near future.

[Deleted]

I personally like it. Being GCD capped for most of the fight is ok in my book, but it's not optimal. It yields problems with dynamic haste effects as BL / trinket procs or short phases with nothing to nuke. So a little air to breathe in between seems like a good change.
And, to those who complain because of "nerfs" (this has been said over and over again here, but I'll repeat it again): The changes now have absolutely nothing to do with the numbers we will pull out in the prepatch / in the addon. The only thing they are is an indicator of the direction the class is going in terms of playstyle.

[Ampere]

As others are saying, it's important to look at changes like this in how they affect gameplay, not overall dps. This slows down the WW rotation a little bit, like when they bumped Sinister Strike to 50 energy for Rogues. Especially with the Floating Butterfly glyph, I think it's cool that they are moving towards Fists of Fury being a desirable attack to use. Although you have to wonder, should they have increased Jab to 50 energy baseline and made Ox Stance decrease the cost by 10? The result is the same, but players are silly and tend to see 'increases resource cost' in a tooltip and get upset. Wouldn't affect how people react to datamining though.

Blizzard's current philosophy is that all dps are within a few % of each other and they will do a tuning pass later to adjust damage as needed.

[Totaltotemic]

The one item no one has talked about which has me curious is that the boost to FoF plus the energy increase also nerfs our TEB generation. Maybe 5-6 stacks per minute? Could see 30-40% uptime instead of current 60%ish if you are lucky. What this means is that you are going to pool TEB more just for the FoF usage and never outside unless going to cap at 20 stacks.

TEB is going to be so much more fun with FoF being a real ability. It's probably the thing that I'm most excited about for WW in WoD.

Think about it, TEB lasts 15 seconds, but even at end of expansion levels of TEB with max haste we still don't have enough to use it every FoF, especially not if generation will be slowed down a bit with more free spells and a more expensive Jab. Do we get to use TEB at lower than 10 stacks if FoF comes off cooldown? What about when a trinket procs but FoF won't come up in the next 10 seconds? Will we ever hold off on FoF (and by doing so somehow bank 3 chi..?) to wait for more TEB stacks? Is holding 10 stacks for the possibility that you might get a double trinket proc + FoF + TEB combo going to be a thing? What if we hold onto a charge of Chi Brew as kind of a TEB bank just in case those stars align? If you're running Hurricane Kick or Chi Serenity it's damn near guaranteed that we'll want to have 10 TEB each time those come off cooldown.

Mastering TEB is going to be about so much more than just pressing it when trinkets proc now. The sheer amount of calculations necessary in the middle of a fight to figure out when to use the stacks is going to be insane.

[kaiadam]

Mastering TEB is going to be about so much more than just pressing it when trinkets proc now. The sheer amount of calculations necessary in the middle of a fight to figure out when to use the stacks is going to be insane.

Until someone works out the math into a weakaura and just lights up the button when it's optimal to hit it

[Totaltotemic]

Until someone works out the math into a weakaura and just lights up the button when it's optimal to hit it

I could be wrong, but I don't think WeakAuras has the capacity to compare the cooldowns of multiple abilities, current energy and chi levels, probability of a trinket proc occurring in the next X seconds, and count current TEB stacks all at the same time. It's a tad more complicated than doing a standard spellpower x crit x haste x mastery calculation to compare current dot strength to potential dot strength.

Of course I still get people that tell me they should just use TEB every time it hits 10 stacks so... yeah.

[Bullettime]

With Fists of Fury being a more integral part of the cycle, they're simply trying to stop the issues of Windwalker GCD capping that starts to happen in low gear. Notice the nerf to Ascension and Combo Breaker as well.

As long as the numbers are tuned to accommodate the slightly slower Chi generation, it should be a gain to the class. No more GCD capped carpal tunnel inducing button mashing.