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  1. #1

    Exclamation Thok 10 Heroic HELP!/INFO!/ADVICE!

    Please no Flaming.

    We seem to have troubles with thok, some of it i think is due to Healing/Tanking mostly. we are 1 tanking it (of course, dont ask why! i know we can 2tank it and much other things).

    Here are some of our logs. (RECENT!)

    Logs Both links are on same day might have diff info.
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/V21fwkZHM64ycWLj
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/b4nqBFQHWCL2RmDp

    I will edit this post later after raids done. got swaped for Monk tank try it out.
    Updated logs: April 17 end of night finish reports.
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2KkrtPZ8TpXBFCag
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/atMjT8ZC37RrK6gL


    Any and all info and help would be awesome. Please point out what we can do diff or what we can update on. i'm Currently dk tank (so bashing what i am doing is ok LOL! i am missing trinket from protectors) and help from other dks are nice.. i change few gems (from parry stacking) to few mastery gems in thought it would give me better bubbles. but again advice and pointing out my mistakes would help lots as well maybe group in a hole
    Please post class (NOT NAME) that could do diff. Thank you!
    Last edited by Noix; 2014-04-18 at 04:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Your priest needs to look at logs from other disc priests to see how they approach the fight. Whatever he/she is doing is completely subpar.

    1) Used inner will instead of inner fire*on a 2min attempt
    2) Terrible archangel uptime.
    3) Used inner focus (stops you being interrupted) once in over 2 min
    4) Used divine star a jesusomgwtf amazing spell 2x in 2 min.
    5) Only spirit shell'd once in 2 min (Once with hand of protection) - you can squeeze another in at 4 stacks(ish) if you stopcasting for the screech. Also spirit shell with archangel up, not without it.

    General stuff
    Why are you only using 1 devo? Ret pallys have them too (scratch that ur h pala didn't use his :P)
    Personal usage is shocking to non existent
    H pala is using DP and not HA. HA is the biggest throughput CD a hpala has.
    You need to use smokebomb more than 1x in 17 attempts

    Basically you need to work out a cooldown rotation to get you close to 30 stacks in p1 which you can repeat to the T in p3. List every cooldown you have and tell people to do x at y stacks until you find something that works.
    And imo 1 tank is the way to go, as long as the tanks have a good Cd rotation they should be fine and the damage they do with vengeance is immense on this fight.
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2014-04-18 at 05:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Deja thanks man for the response, make sure you check better (longer parts?) of the fights (vs checking everything i guess). Our healing cds we have on a rotation. ill get that for you tomorrow from person who sets it up if you want to recomment on it. but we do use 2 per phase i do believe. as for priest not sure. (i'm just meat sheild mostly). Thank you for your input if you can toss more that be awesome or see anything else.


    Got Rotation for healing: This was from Tuesday tho.. and sorta still same (keep changing it a bit here and there depending on the class)
    5: healing tide
    7: devotion aura
    10: Tranq
    14: HoP + Tranq
    16: spirit shell + hop
    18: devotion aura + barrier
    20: stack up
    Last edited by Noix; 2014-04-18 at 05:01 AM.

  4. #4
    Healing is clearly the issue, with this short wipes. disc priest should be top on the healing.

    7 divine star cast during a 4 min fight, when you can fit 14-15 divine star.
    Looking at the logs you are phasing it around 26 screch average.

    The dps is very low compared to other guild when they progressed on this boss.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wesco View Post
    Healing is clearly the issue, with this short wipes. disc priest should be top on the healing.

    7 divine star cast during a 4 min fight, when you can fit 14-15 divine star.
    Looking at the logs you are phasing it around 26 screch average.

    The dps is very low compared to other guild when they progressed on this boss.
    Didnt think our dps was that low (maybe?), what average dps would you say..
    our group ilvl is average (i think?!) 570-573ish

    200k+ per person (roughly?)

  6. #6
    200k is really low, you should be looking at 350+ at that ilvl.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Noix View Post
    Didnt think our dps was that low (maybe?), what average dps would you say..
    our group ilvl is average (i think?!) 570-573ish

    200k+ per person (roughly?)
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done

    Logs from the last time we killed it. Lowest dps on the boss was 230k and highest 320k over 6:40. I guess this includes an execute phase though. You can also check what our disc priest does in that fight (ignore my healing, I'm MS tank and OS hpala and I just heal so the others can laugh at me)


    Edit @ Khorm, if you can keep 350k sustained on Thok for the duration you'll make Top 50 on warcraftlogs :P
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2014-04-18 at 05:47 AM.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    For Resto Druid:
    -NV is wasted at the start of most fights, but this one particualrly. I usually wait until screech 4-5 to pop it, otherwise you don't really reap the benefits of it. Your boomkin should also do the same.
    -Harmony uptime was pretty terrible - it wasn't up for the first 30s of the fight, this is a massive throughput loss. It can drop off while you're kiting, but there isn't a reason to not precast something to have it up right from the start.
    -Poor swiftmend usage - only 3 uses in the time linked for a 15s cd spell, this would also help improve harmony
    -Similarly WG could be used more.
    -Cenarion ward isn't particularly effective, as it takes so long to do its heal, Ysera's Gift, while boring is usually better, but won't make or break it. They're only using CW 1-2 times though (15s cd), so would just be better off with the passive effect unless they can use it more.
    -You can bloom your mushrooms earlier and have them charged up for later on as well.
    -They also aren't using their 2pc bonus very often - you get an instant, free healing touch once you get to 5 stacks of sage mender. This will also help to kepp up Harmony.
    -They also shouldn't generally be using genesis, it's particularly useless so early on!

    I only looked in depth at a couple of attempts, the one you linked was probably the worst, but there's still some of this stuff going on on most attempts.

    There's a few threads on Thok in the druid forums, if they want a more detailed explanation.

    On a slightly more general note, Devo Aura doesn't prevent any screech damage - it only reduces magical damage taken and screech is physical, so the only benefit you get is the interrupt protection, you should always pair it with something else. You pair devos and tranq to be able to use the HoP elsewhere, as druids don't really need it outside of tranq.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    I was talking about raid dps, ie if every member of their raid could top 350k "on thok" not in total. Regardless of nitpicking, 350k is highend dps, not "we're progressing on thok now" kind of dps.

  11. #11
    Regardless, 200k is still too low.

  12. #12
    Soikela
    Yea that info you just posted should help us out lot more. ill have our druid look more into it. Not sure if we using DA for interrupt protection, ill have to check on that part (inlogs).

    Khorm
    Yea kinda suspected our dps might be bit low.we also trying to push boss before fire. witch is kinda odd, i hear people down it in fire or pushing into fire then waiting like 2-5 stacks then droping out and killing him in kit mode.

    Deja
    Thanks for the logs, should open some eyes up on what we should be doing (roughly).


    Not sure if most you guys went and check our best pulls i only posted full logs, still learning the CD rotation on what stacks, so there is times (if you look at the logs) we just die 30sec - 2mins if that in the fight. what i got from most of you sounds like a bit of issue on everyones part. Most of us think we have dps to down him (since our longest fight we got him to 55% i think it was, going into Poison phase roughly). Some of us says its healing a bit low others say its Dk maybe (i know its should be done by pally or warrior tank *is what i read around) dks arnt so (strong?) on tanking but can be done.
    Last edited by Noix; 2014-04-18 at 03:01 PM.

  13. #13
    We spent I-don't-want-to-say-how-many wipes working on it with combinations of 2 and 1 tanking and 3 healing, with detailed CD rotations, etc. We then killed it on the third try 1-tank/4-heal (two of whom were offspec), without even needing a cooldown rotation. It really trivialized it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Malvesti View Post
    We spent I-don't-want-to-say-how-many wipes working on it with combinations of 2 and 1 tanking and 3 healing, with detailed CD rotations, etc. We then killed it on the third try 1-tank/4-heal (two of whom were offspec), without even needing a cooldown rotation. It really trivialized it.
    did you guys hit fire and also did you stack to 5-8 on fire then killed in kite?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Noix View Post
    did you guys hit fire and also did you stack to 5-8 on fire then killed in kite?
    Yes, that's right. We could have killed it before then by pushing every ph1 to near 30, but didn't want to risk tank death. Tank personal CDs and externals are the main limiting factor here.

  16. #16
    We 2 tank/3 healed. First kill just a few weeks ago. Figuring out the perfect healing CD rotation to get to ~28 stacks in the first stack phase, ~10 in the next, and ~22 in the third was the biggest thing. Also, getting DPS to save CDs for bats as well as saving one CD (Disc Barrier) for them was integral.

    We kill him in the fire phase. Could kill him in the frost phase or post frost phase kite if everything goes near perfectly.

  17. #17
    I noticed that some attempts you're using 3 healers and 4 on others. 4 healing was a viable option for the earlier kills due to lower item levels. At this point, I consider it to be overkill. With proper cooldown usage, 3 is plenty to push ~25 stacks in P1 and P3.

    Although I can't offer any advice beyond comparing our logs to yours, it seems to me that your resto shaman is underperforming. Shamans are completely overpowered and broken on this fight, and should be topping meters over any other healer. If you look at our 4 minute wipe compared with yours, our shaman cast chain heal 36 more times. I'd venture to say if he focused on getting more of those out, his HPS would skyrocket.

    We're at a similar point progression wise, had a 15% wipe this past Wednesday; should be coming down next week. Here are our logs. Anyone else looking at this thread, feel free to criticize them as well

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...s=1599&wipes=1

    One thing to note, on our longest attempt the warlock froze up and DCd about half-way through, hence the 150k DPS.
    Last edited by Nebs; 2014-04-18 at 09:47 PM.

  18. #18
    Nebs
    Our shammy is off spec is prob why he underprof. also gear is meh it was mostly see how 4 heals would do on our comp.

    yea we pushing 22-26 stacks on first phase. poison we take 8 stacks roughly and move on.. then well frozen we hit once i think and only went till i got frozen then yea.

    Gonna check your logs thank you for them!

    Vedni
    We tried to 2 tank it.. Monk and pally (cuz i was sitting already) and not sure it was much of a difference. using pally tank to heal (selfless healer) mostly it hink idea was.

  19. #19
    Pally can solo tank and be entirely self-sufficient on this fight (check out Theck's posts on the subject) easily doing 300k+ HPS on himself. That's the only way I recommend solo tanking it, really, unless you're going with the 7-DPS strategy. Pally tanks are even more broken for this fight than resto shamans (devo, double BoP and OMGWTF self-heals, plus natural bat aggro).

    The first push is the most important part of the fight. It will take practice to get the cooldowns and healing right. Once you're reliably making it to 25+ stacks, you're over the learning curve. We didn't save a damage reduction CD for bats, but I did have our pally use his second BoP on our warlock for them, instead of using it on me for healing the first push. I SS just before/as the bats are spawning and use mass dispel to make sure we're not taking debuff damage. We time as many AoEs for the bats as possible (divine star, pally hammer from healers, etc) and stack up to allow push right about the time the bats die, which is generally 8-10 stacks. We had several wipes in this portion of the fight before we made appropriate adjustments to kill bats quickly and stopped trying to push the healing too hard in this phase. It's even okay to let the phase end with bats still alive, as long as they're about to die.

    The third push is just like the first one (we add our bear's tranq at the beginning and then use the same rotation we used for the first). The boss should be sub-25% by the end of this third stack phase, and as your DPS learn the patterns of the fight, you will probably start getting him into execute range. We botched the fourth stack phase (fire) on our kill and he entered blood frenzy right away, but it didn't matter because we already had him around 14% at the end of the third.

  20. #20
    Having your paladin solo tank this boss is a very good move; as stated above they are entirely self sufficient when their vengeance gets high. In our guild we 1 tank, 3 heal this encounter using a fairly similar comp but with a MW Monk instead of a Disc Priest. Here's the rotation we used to kill it:

    First Tank Phase:
    Boss is placed next to the Ice Cage, dps and healers in a triangular formation at his side. We use heroism on the pull and nuke as much as we can, aiming to push ~60% before the transition. We found Smoke Bomb to be risky so for the sake of quick progression we didn't use it in the raid-CD rotation. You may feel otherwise!

    6 Stacks: Resto Druid Cooldowns - External on the tank.
    9 Stacks: Dps Raid Cooldown (We use Rallying/HTT)
    11 Stacks: DA from our Holy Paladin
    13 Stacks: (or when DA falls): Second DA from our Prot Paladin.
    15 Stacks: Revival (I'd suggest using your Resto's Tranquility here and using a priest CD after this.)
    16 Stacks: Prot Paladin's Hand of Protection to allow Tranq from Resto Druid.
    19 Stacks: Holy Paladin Cooldowns and his/her own Hand of Protection.
    We transition at around 24 stacks, before the 8th Panic Stack, which often caused problems.

    Important: Your Prot Paladin should call for all externals and they should be used when he/she needs them. You have Smoke Bomb, Pain Supp, Ironbark and Hand of Sacrifice to use.

    First Kite Phase
    1st Fixate: Whoever gets targeted takes the boss to the centre of the room. Melee dps can move back in to attack after the fixate is cast.
    2nd Fixate: Runs to the entrance. Melee swap to the Jailer. Keep his enrage dispelled and disarm him as much as possible.
    3rd Fixate: To the centre again. We open the poison cage at 7 stacks. Have your hunter apply 'Widow Venom' to reduce his healing taken.

    Poison Tank Phase:
    Boss is tanked next to to the poison door. Bats are misdirected to the tank and any external cooldown not used in Phase 1 should be used on your Prot Paladin here. Dps should go all out to kill these quickly.

    Transition at 5 stacks and finish up bats quickly. Use healthstones and other personals but be careful using damage reductions as these can mess up a quick transition. Only use them if you're dropping very low.

    Poison Kite Phase:
    Keep dispels on cooldown. Kiters should use any personal if they get more than 1 stack, or if they range too far.

    Same fixate pattern as before, although you may find you need to take him to the entrance. Transition at 7 stacks, ideally when the boss is moving towards the back of the room. Have your hunter apply 'Widow Venom' to reduce his healing taken.

    Ice Tank Phase:
    A repeat of phase 1, positioning is the same and cooldown rotations are the same, but move every cooldown back by 4 stacks, so:

    2 Stacks: Resto Druid Cooldowns - External on the tank.
    5 Stacks: Dps Raid Cooldown (We use Rallying/HTT)
    7 Stacks: DA from our Holy Paladin
    9 Stacks: (or when DA falls): Second DA from our Prot Paladin.
    11 Stacks: Revival (I'd suggest using your Resto's Tranquility here and using a priest CD after this.)
    12 Stacks: Prot Paladin's Hand of Protection to allow Tranq from Resto Druid.
    15 Stacks: Holy Paladin Cooldowns and his/her own Hand of Protection.

    Transition at 20 stacks. Tank will get frozen here. Free him/her from the first tomb immediately and, as a paladin, they can remove the second set of stacks with a Divine Shield. Be aware that your tank will need externals again. You're looking to push sub-20% if you can. The yeti is now active and raiders who aren't paying attention to it will die.

    Ice Kite Phase:
    Same as the first, but we try to open the cage at 8 or 9 stacks this time to ensure we meet the dps requirement. Keep a constant eye on the yeti and have one raider assigned to call out roughly where it's going/when it's charging. Keep voice comm clear aside from that person. Have your hunter apply 'Widow Venom' to reduce his healing taken.

    Fire Tank Phase:
    Tank the boss next to the fire cage, drop a marker to stack on for transition and stay spread away from it meanwhile. We transition at 5 stacks by having everyone stack on yellow regardless of there being fire there or not. Use personals. Keep an eye on the yeti.

    Fire Kite Phase:
    All out nuke. Have your tank pick up the jailer and take it away from the group. Keep an eye on the yeti and nuke the last 8% or so.

    Hope this helps. As others have said, your dps and healers definitely have a lot of room for improvement and they will need to make an active and conscious effort to get better for this fight and all future heroic fights. Don't stand for any laziness or lack of improvement between raids if you want to get them down! Good luck! :)

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