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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The healer buff and the tank buff are equally strong, actually. Except the tank buff doesn't require you to face the right way, but just to stand in the middle of everything (which tanks luckily tend to do). If the tanks utilise it correct, anyway.
    From the perspective of the DPS check, this is true. But the healer buff also does something ridiculous like 400k healing to everyone in it's path. Incredibly helpful for those moments when DPS are slow to kill the pheromone bosses or allow too many statues to survive on the mogu bosses.

    Healer plus tank buff while holding the bosses in the middle for easy spark cleaves is the best setup from my experience. Healer and tank buffs decimate all of the sparks and do massive cleave when its your turn to open the AoE boxes. DPS buff just seems "meh" (unless you want to rank, then it's pretty cool).

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    There really isn't that much RNG to the buffs. You're guaranteed to always have at least 1 of the healer or tank buff.
    DPS buff sucks and tank buff doesn't provide insane free healing. So, yes, there is that much RNG to the buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    Most guilds do this fight improperly if they're unable to down sparks w/o the healer buff. You're supposed to have one side chain both bosses and then trash while the other side chains the trash and then both bosses. The side with the bosses at the time has the tank move into the center where the sparks spawn. By doing that, you're guaranteed to either have the healer be able to aim the waves at the sparks or have the tank scuttle to the sparks. It's not a coincidence that both buffs deal ~750k damage (in 10H at least). The only thing you have to keep note of is that the side that does the bosses second can't pick up their panda buffs right away because you'll risk the buffs falling off before you even start on the bosses.
    I don't think there's really a "supposed to" strategy on this fight and it's definitely, absolutely NOT to "chain" the bosses. It's much safer and nearly as efficient to alternate bosses (side 1 first boss, then side 2 first boss, then side 1 second boss, then side 2 second boss) allowing the room to clear of any lingering bombs or statues in between them and allowing procs and cooldowns to reset.

    There are times when the healer or tank buff won't proc and DPS still need to kill a spark (especially if you only have one or the other). Putting the bosses in the middle to cleave them helps and eases the target swapping discomfort, but it's not an automatic fix and the fight still has a pretty decent DPS check to it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    From the perspective of the DPS check, this is true. But the healer buff also does something ridiculous like 400k healing to everyone in it's path. Incredibly helpful for those moments when DPS are slow to kill the pheromone bosses or allow too many statues to survive on the mogu bosses.

    Healer plus tank buff while holding the bosses in the middle for easy spark cleaves is the best setup from my experience. Healer and tank buffs decimate all of the sparks and do massive cleave when its your turn to open the AoE boxes. DPS buff just seems "meh" (unless you want to rank, then it's pretty cool).

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    DPS buff sucks and tank buff doesn't provide insane free healing. So, yes, there is that much RNG to the buffs.

    Yes, the DPS buff (really) sucks but you're guaranteed to have either the tank or healing buff. They both do about 75% of the spark's hp. If you're genuinely unable to handle the sparks without the healing buff, I'd say it's a strategy issue. If the healing from the wave makes or break your healer's ability to heal the fight, then either your healer is not that great of a healer or the other members on that healer's side are taking too much unnecessary damage. Blaming RNG means you're avoiding the real issue. Yes, I'd imagine a handful of guilds probably got their first kill thanks to a lucky save from the healing tidal wave, but unless you're a top 10 guild facing h-spoils with 555 ilvl, you shouldn't be relying on RNG.

    The healing you get from the healing buff is honestly not that significant. It's only 150k per person hit, 400k is a gross exaggeration. At most it'll do 5% of your healer's overall healing (going off the top 5 healing parses for that fight on 10H on warcraftlogs). Honestly, I'd even go so far to argue that the stun from the tank buff probably stops at least half as much damage as the healing buff would have healed.

    Healing that fight is all about understanding where the damage is gonna hit and when it's gonna hit (that's how all healing works really; it's why you plan raid cds). For both sides, the trash for the most part just tunnels the tank along with a few cute mechanics that you have to respond to (dispel/spellsteal enrage, don't stand in tornados/pheromones, stand in anima golem wormholes, interrupt torment to move the mob out of ground buff). Then for the bosses: the mogu boss will do a big burst (dealing more for each statue up) and then do minor tank damage for 10 seconds or so and then repeat his cycle until he dies, periodically summoning more statues. On the Mantid side, the bosses do a ticking aura along with minor tank damage, the only real danger being your healer getting set to blow if he's already behind on healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    I don't think there's really a "supposed to" strategy on this fight and it's definitely, absolutely NOT to "chain" the bosses. It's much safer and nearly as efficient to alternate bosses (side 1 first boss, then side 2 first boss, then side 1 second boss, then side 2 second boss) allowing the room to clear of any lingering bombs or statues in between them and allowing procs and cooldowns to reset.

    There are times when the healer or tank buff won't proc and DPS still need to kill a spark (especially if you only have one or the other). Putting the bosses in the middle to cleave them helps and eases the target swapping discomfort, but it's not an automatic fix and the fight still has a pretty decent DPS check to it.
    That certainly works too. Really the two main points to making this fight as smooth and easy as possible are:
    1. If one side is fighting a boss, the other side should be fighting trash in order to spawn sparks for the side with the boss.
    2. Tank the boss in the middle so the sparks can get cleaved down by either (or both) the tank buff or healer buff.

    I'm personally still in favor on chain pulling the bosses because then there's no issue of one side killing trash too quickly or their boss too quickly. If the two sides don't match up in speed, you could end up with one side having to pull dps off trash to kill sparks which is definitely a loss in efficiency. My guild assigned the side with stronger cleave to pull their bosses second so that way that side always finishes all of their trash just before or at about the same time the other side finishes both bosses. Worst case scenario, both sides are doing bosses at the same time, but as long as one side doesn't have to deal with both trash and sparks at the same time, it's fine.
    Last edited by wombats23; 2014-04-20 at 07:51 AM.

  3. #23
    the most common mistake i have seen on spoils hc is tank not pulling agresively enough - i get it that there a point where its too aggresive but some tanks try to go easier on healers and make the breaks between boxes opening last 4-5 seconds to long on each pack and it sums up to the point of hiting the enrage - this was the main problem in my guild that 1 of tanks who is really good tank wasnt pullign agresively enough and the side i was on was finishing our side with +/- 30 seconds buffer while they were always barely on time or hiting enrage even though they had stronger dpses on their side.

    things need to be constantly pulled without any breaks when the mobs that are up are on last 5-10 % health new box needs to be stared to being opened not starting to open it when mobs are dead - this is those few secodns on each pack that make difference between hiting enrage and not when u progress it - at least that was for my guild.

  4. #24
    A long term advice: Make one or even two melees reroll and gear a 2nd char. Better do it sooner than later.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    If you're genuinely unable to handle the sparks without the healing buff, I'd say it's a strategy issue. If the healing from the wave makes or break your healer's ability to heal the fight, then either your healer is not that great of a healer or the other members on that healer's side are taking too much unnecessary damage. Blaming RNG means you're avoiding the real issue. Yes, I'd imagine a handful of guilds probably got their first kill thanks to a lucky save from the healing tidal wave, but unless you're a top 10 guild facing h-spoils with 555 ilvl, you shouldn't be relying on RNG.
    Im not trying to be insulting here, but the logic in those statements is seriously lacking. What "top 10" guilds need at 555, more casual guilds will need at 560, 565, etc. And no one said you CAN'T do the fight without the healer buff, but anyone telling you it doesn't make the fight significantly easier is full of crap. So who cares what the "real issue" is?

    The damage on this fight is particularly spiky and the number of ways to kill yourself is pretty astounding (got clipped by that tornado during pheromone cloud? GG.). The healing from the healer buff is a massive advantage and so is the massive AoE path of its damage. I've had it basically kill 3 sparks and then plow into a group of four mobs while healing the whole group on my side. The tank buff cannot match that level of absurdity.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Im not trying to be insulting here, but the logic in those statements is seriously lacking. What "top 10" guilds need at 555, more casual guilds will need at 560, 565, etc. And no one said you CAN'T do the fight without the healer buff, but anyone telling you it doesn't make the fight significantly easier is full of crap. So who cares what the "real issue" is?

    The damage on this fight is particularly spiky and the number of ways to kill yourself is pretty astounding (got clipped by that tornado during pheromone cloud? GG.). The healing from the healer buff is a massive advantage and so is the massive AoE path of its damage. I've had it basically kill 3 sparks and then plow into a group of four mobs while healing the whole group on my side. The tank buff cannot match that level of absurdity.
    The encounter is extremely relaxed on the healing requirement, actually. Looking at our latest 10 man kill, our healers did about 100-110K HPS over the fight (which is nothing, considering they have killed juggernaut which requires about 150-200K sustained from 3-2 healers, with an equally brutal "burst" phase). You are correct in that it comes in bursts, but that's for the healers to realise and plan around. The healing requirements are so laughably easy to meet, all you've gotta do is figure out how your class best deals with burst damage every 10 seconds or ~30-45 seconds of AOE pulses (hint: Coordinate your cds). The mistweaver buff is great, sure, but it's by no means gamebreaking at this point for a healer.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    The healing you get from the healing buff is honestly not that significant. It's only 150k per person hit, 400k is a gross exaggeration. At most it'll do 5% of your healer's overall healing (going off the top 5 healing parses for that fight on 10H on warcraftlogs). Honestly, I'd even go so far to argue that the stun from the tank buff probably stops at least half as much damage as the healing buff would have healed.
    And if you did go that far, I'd go so far as to argue that you're stupid. This is a randomly selected log (literally the first ranking I could fin with the buff): http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...82&view=events

    See that 496k heal? Right after the 387k one? Yeah, totally insignificant. The heal scales by missing health and does FAR MORE than 150k when you need it most. The tank stun does nothing the the bosses and those are the major sources of unavoidable damage. No way it even comes close to the value of the healer buff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The encounter is extremely relaxed on the healing requirement, actually. Looking at our latest 10 man kill, our healers did about 100-110K HPS over the fight (which is nothing, considering they have killed juggernaut which requires about 150-200K sustained from 3-2 healers, with an equally brutal "burst" phase). You are correct in that it comes in bursts, but that's for the healers to realise and plan around. The healing requirements are so laughably easy to meet, all you've gotta do is figure out how your class best deals with burst damage every 10 seconds or ~30-45 seconds of AOE pulses (hint: Coordinate your cds). The mistweaver buff is great, sure, but it's by no means gamebreaking at this point for a healer.
    Comparing the overall HPS required for these fights is idiotic, so the only response I'm going to give is that HPS spikes in spoils logs are just as big as the ones on IJ.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The encounter is extremely relaxed on the healing requirement, actually. Looking at our latest 10 man kill, our healers did about 100-110K HPS over the fight (which is nothing, considering they have killed juggernaut which requires about 150-200K sustained from 3-2 healers, with an equally brutal "burst" phase). You are correct in that it comes in bursts, but that's for the healers to realise and plan around. The healing requirements are so laughably easy to meet, all you've gotta do is figure out how your class best deals with burst damage every 10 seconds or ~30-45 seconds of AOE pulses (hint: Coordinate your cds). The mistweaver buff is great, sure, but it's by no means gamebreaking at this point for a healer.
    Yet another dracox2 post detailing how wrong he is.

    Farm =/= progression, progression healing for 10 man spoils is no joke.

    Especially on the mantid side as a non-druid/shaman healer when you get targeted by bombs and everyone's health is dropping so quickly.

    For farm, everything dies so quickly obviously the healing demand is far lower as a result.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Yet another dracox2 post detailing how wrong he is.

    Farm =/= progression, progression healing for 10 man spoils is no joke.

    Especially on the mantid side as a non-druid/shaman healer when you get targeted by bombs and everyone's health is dropping so quickly.

    For farm, everything dies so quickly obviously the healing demand is far lower as a result.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...myY2B#fight=16 our first spoils kill, with an average of roughly 568 item level. 125K for the one healer, 98K for the other. Very intensive indeed. The staff did 8% for both healers. The paladin got it twice, the disc priest got it once. It is NOT a healing intensive fight. You seem to have "wrong" confused with "different opinion backed by logs". It is by no means a neccessity for a healer, and at this point in time, their healing should by no means be reliant on having the buff or not. It is, as said, simply an issue of figuring out when to use your healing cds properly.
    Consider when you go further into the log, you can see that the total amount of heals that the disc priest casted that wasn't either atonement or cascade (and remember he only got the staff once, in the less intensive mogu room) is:
    Two prayer of healings.
    Nine shields (some of which were Mogu room side).
    A few PoM (not sure how to count it, I think it was bugged so it wouldn't jump?).
    And two penances.

    If the encounter is so relaxed that a disc priest in worse gear than theirs can literally cast a shield on Rapture CD and two PoHs, and then atonement for the rest of it on mantid side, I really don't understand why you think it's "intense". You might be doing it wrong.

    I'm sorry that you think you need to have some sort of vendetta against me, but here's the thing - I'm not going to speak about stuff I don't know anything about. You can feel free to believe whatever you want about an encounter, but it's quite clear that the output their healers have are easily sufficient to not get "RNG-gibbed" just because they don't get a mistweaver buff - even on progress.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2014-04-22 at 06:06 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Yet another dracox2 post detailing how wrong he is.
    he is not wrong - he is just illustrating perfeckly the difference in performance of top world teams vs average hc raid guild

    my guild is around 3k mark and our average healing there even on farm is around 180-200k(around 160k if were super lucky and eveyrthing goes just perfeckly ><) there -_- people in weaker guidls deu to lesser skills take shittton more dmg there and spike liek crazy casue they fail to avoid shit - top playersjsut do much less accidental mistakes cause of avarness they have doin much higher dps while doin it -_-)

    this is just the vast difference between top and average -_- its night and day.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2014-04-22 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Im not trying to be insulting here, but the logic in those statements is seriously lacking. What "top 10" guilds need at 555, more casual guilds will need at 560, 565, etc. And no one said you CAN'T do the fight without the healer buff, but anyone telling you it doesn't make the fight significantly easier is full of crap. So who cares what the "real issue" is?

    The damage on this fight is particularly spiky and the number of ways to kill yourself is pretty astounding (got clipped by that tornado during pheromone cloud? GG.). The healing from the healer buff is a massive advantage and so is the massive AoE path of its damage. I've had it basically kill 3 sparks and then plow into a group of four mobs while healing the whole group on my side. The tank buff cannot match that level of absurdity.
    I'm saying you can't rely on the healing buff on this fight because it won't always be there. The world-first guilds might have had to rely on that to beat the timers on this fight. Guilds today no longer have to. As such, strategies nowadays should be flexible enough to compensate for any combination of the 3 buffs you get. The strategy I proposed does exactly that. It's actually kind of funny you brought up your scenario where your wave hit 3 sparks and 4 mobs. It's not a coincidence that with my strategy, there won't be both 3 sparks and 4 mobs up at the same time for you to hit, unless you want to count statues from the mogu side.

    To use a "bigger" example, Method had to literally rely on opportune RPPM trinket procs when progressing on h-Lei Shen to beat P1 according to an article on manaflask.com. They literally had no way of having a chance at that boss without procs, and I want to emphasize the word literally. Unless you have no way of downing a boss without relying on sheer RNG, you should be basing strategies that won't rely on such RNG. In this case with spoils, you should not be relying on the healing buff because it's not mandatory. Helpful, but not mandatory.

    And the damage is no where near as scary as dark shamans, IJ or garrosh (to name a few), fights where you risk literally getting globaled if not topped off or fights where the damage is so high you're required to plan raid CDs. Damage in this fight is so telegraphed ahead of time. Kunchongs shoot a little has missile that follows the floor. The tornados are freaking tornados you see coming (wanted to also mention again that with my method of doing this fight, tornados will never exist at the same time as pheromone clouds, crazy huh). The mogu bosses have a cast timer. The mantid bosses have a short cast timer once they're released before they start their damage. I'm sure the other trash mobs have some sort of telegraph as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    And if you did go that far, I'd go so far as to argue that you're stupid. This is a randomly selected log (literally the first ranking I could fin with the buff): http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...82&view=events

    See that 496k heal? Right after the 387k one? Yeah, totally insignificant. The heal scales by missing health and does FAR MORE than 150k when you need it most. The tank stun does nothing the the bosses and those are the major sources of unavoidable damage. No way it even comes close to the value of the healer buff.

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    Comparing the overall HPS required for these fights is idiotic, so the only response I'm going to give is that HPS spikes in spoils logs are just as big as the ones on IJ.
    I stand corrected on the amount the wave heals. However, take a look at the damage taken your warlock takes that required that huge surge of healing. Half of the damage that wave healed was damage he took from standing next to a spark. Your wave didn't heal significant damage that came from the boss mobs. It healed stupidity (I guess since you're calling me stupid, I'm free to call that warlock stupid. This is fun.) If you want to argue that the the buff is awesome at helping your healer manage stupidity, by all means. I'm saying its healing is not that important if your raid group is paying attention. This isn't a mechanically challenging fight. It's a lot of "Don't Stand In Bad 101". The only heroic mechanic of the fight are the sparks, so that warlock is failing at normal mechanics. The challenge of this fight is the DPS check. And even if your raid takes a lot of unnecessary damage, it's still not enough that there's too much to heal without the buff.

    Anyway, looking at the fight as a whole, the healing buff does nothing spectacular other than killing the sparks, which the tank buff does just as well at. Giving two large bursts of healing from the staff still doesn't mean the fight is too RNG-heavy with the buffs, nor does it mean the healing buff is so ridiculously OP compared to the tanking buff. The healing the buff does a lot of non-critical healing. It's not healing that you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise but it'll show up in the logs to make you think it was important and worthwhile. It's the same reason why absorbs seem so powerful. They beat actual healing to the punch. But when the going gets rough (whirling corruption, firey chains, electromagnet), that's when healing is truly important. That's critical healing. The healing buff's significance is the damage it does to the spark, which it does just as well as the tank buff.

    With that logic of the spikes in damage, I could say Sha is ridiculously healing intensive because that last swelling pride before your corruption resets is a huge spike damage. Spoils really is a very easy to heal fight. If you want, you could break the fight into 4 phases, mantid trash (heal stupid), mantid boss (constant raid wide damage like IJ + 1 person has to run away), mogu trash (heal stupid), mogu boss (swelling pride every 10 seconds, corruption = statues). Maybe then you'll get a better understanding of why the healing is a joke.

    A part of me wonders if people think the healing buff is mandatory because popular strategies early on (fatboss in particular) over praised the buff. Lemmings?
    Last edited by wombats23; 2014-04-22 at 11:25 PM.

  12. #32
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    If you are struggling because people die to tornadoes, use another tactic. We used the tactic where we kill 2 Big, 2 Medium and all but 2 smalls.

    The 2 mediums were the last ones to be opened so they don't cause chaos "mid-fight".

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    >Implying Immolate generates a lot of embers.

    Immolate is the lowest ember generator Destro has, 1 ember bit for tick crit. Incinerate generates 1 ember bit always and crits generate 2.

    What's truly wrong with the Warlock is:

    (4) 7.97% Rain of Fire uptime
    Rain of Fire is already a DPS increase to use single target with haste effects(Meta gem/Berserking/bloodlust), so with 2 targets it's super good. And Spoils has a LOT of mobs going around(especially in Mogu, but in this parse Lock is in Mantid) so you essentially spam Rain of Fire to cover the entire room and spam Chaos Bolts around.

    (1) 1.88% Fire and Brimstone uptime
    Only utilized Fire and Brimstone once, I think it might be a tactic fault here with not opening enough boxes to make FnB worth it(I usually have a 4 target minimum as a standard for using it).

    0 uses of Havoc
    Havoc is the best spell you have as a Warlock, you can double your Chaos Bolt's damage with this or generate twice as much Ember bits from 3 Incinerates. Or you can spam 3 consecutive Shadowburn's for massive execute damage.

    Using Grimoire of Supremacy
    Grimoire of Sacrifice is a much better talent for this fight, even more so considering your Warlock has HC-WF KTT

    Immolate uptime is low
    Not a major source of resource, but the damage is pretty good still, should be kept on medium/large mobs only, or if there are 4 or more targets that will live for at least 5-7 seconds each, then FnB-Immolate.

    CD usage is bad
    Only used Dark Souls once, very bad.

    TL;DR: Your Warlock sucks badly.
    I agree with all of the above and Immolate uptime is not the focal point here. Honestly, outside of the Large adds I don't use it much at all since nothing lives long enough. The aim of the game is to ensure you always have an ember for shadowburn. You get your Shadowburn snipes down effectively and Keep RoF up you will have enough embers to be casting primarily CB's as your "filler". I hardly use F&B either, generally only mogu side when boxes containing the small dogs are opened or if multiple sparks spawn at once.

    If not mentioned already, we delay picking up the healer buff until Larges are dead so that it lasts longer into the add portions of the fight where it is more useful.
    Last edited by Soulzar; 2014-04-23 at 04:21 PM.

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