Are Shadow Priests really as bad as people say?

[Yvaelle]

I havn't read the thread, but I got to meet up with an old friend who plays a Shadow Priest the other day, and he said that their damage isn't great when leveling, but he just loves Shadow in Pvp. (and he loves his pvp!)

I actually think that has been a bit of the problem (the love for Shadow) - the Warlock population declined a bit in Cataclysm and they wanted to raise it, so they buffed them hoping it would cause people to reroll Warlocks (and some people have) - with the obvious contender being Shadowpriest, a devout community of dark magic damage dealers who have the second largest spec specific community in WoW (only Rets are more popular).

So they made Shadow below par, and they made Warlocks overpowered - and they hoped that osmotic pressure would compel those driven by competition, or even by raid utility - to reroll Warlock. Now, a lot of us have done so - almost all of us have warlock alts at least - but we don't actually identify as Warlocks. That could be a problem in WoD - rerolled Warlocks might return to Shadow - and this whole effort in intentional imbalance could have been in vain.

[kardacz]

almost all of us have warlock alts at least

That we hate playing :P I haven't touched mine since I got my legendary cloak. It just feels so boring compared to shadow.

I prefer to stick to the middle and have fun while doing it then top meters and feel like I'm dying a bit inside from boredom.

[Calamari]

That we hate playing :P I haven't touched mine since I got my legendary cloak. It just feels so boring compared to shadow.

I prefer to stick to the middle and have fun while doing it then top meters and feel like I'm dying a bit inside from boredom.

Exactly, I don't feel proud either but I geared up a Warlock at 90 because I was playing around with the idea of switching teams.. but the gameplay is simply terrible compared to Shadow.

It was a hamfisted and misguided attempt to artificially increase warlock population by dangling a golden dps carrot from the class. Is it so bad that some classes have lower representation than others?

You can't force people to like the flavor of a certain class theme, the guys at blizzard should just accept that not everyone is into green fire and imp orgies (the reason why every warlock has Burning Rash), making the numbers of the class OP doesn't change that.

[Deleted]

That we hate playing :P I haven't touched mine since I got my legendary cloak. It just feels so boring compared to shadow.

I prefer to stick to the middle and have fun while doing it then top meters and feel like I'm dying a bit inside from boredom.

A critting Doom was far more fun than not being able to SWP on the move. Insane burst and AoE from 5.2 Demonology. Damage on the move boring? No way, its annoying when you can't do that while the rest of the world can. KJC, old Mannoroth's Fury, new Archimonde's Vengeance, Soul Swap, Havoc, Shadowburn, Chaos Bolt, Fire & Brimstone, Dark Soul. Even Demonic Circle and Gateway. All amazingly fun and strong.

..but its not a Shadow Priest..

That's more fun! Just not as strong...

[Deleted]

warlock is wayyyy more fun imo. shadow is like 5 buttons and it gets boring real fast.

[Deleted]

I recently saw some statistics somewhere that even in the very best gear with everything you need and perfect rotation, that shadow priests are the lowest in dps in high end raids etc.

Doesn't mean it's not fun, but I definitely feel the difference in comparison to my other characters, and I only ever play as dps.

PS I can't remember where I found it, but it was pretty solid evidence with percentages and comparing to everybody else and stuff like that, made me sad :/

[Bonkura]

Exactly.
And this is the point that most people are missing, it's not that we are the worst DPS spec fullstop, it's that you need to be very very good to be a bit competitive when as a mage or warlock for example you can suck and do better.

I agree about Mages but you can't be serious about Warlocks. It definitely has a higher skill cap than Shadow which has been extremely dumbed down this expansion. The only thing that is harder about playing Shadow over Warlock and Mage is that it's higher paced. The rotation and spec mechanics are extremely easy to execute if we look strictly at a list of priorities and how to maintain your dots.

[kardacz]

It definitely has a higher skill cap than Shadow

Could you please elaborate on this thought and I hope you won't get Demo out for the sake of this argument, because that'd just be funny.

Your last sentence could just as well be be used to sum up a warlock.

[Deleted]

I agree about Mages but you can't be serious about Warlocks. It definitely has a higher skill cap than Shadow

Even mages have a higher skillcap imo. Well at least arcane and maybe fire if played to the highest possible potential. shadow is completely dumbed and simplified this expansion. it makes the spec extremely boring.

[Setheria]

Could you please elaborate on this thought and I hope you won't get Demo out for the sake of this argument, because that'd just be funny.

Your last sentence could just as well be be used to sum up a warlock.

Aff plays like shadow in many ways. Destro is significantly easier in my own personal opinion. Of course it doesn't really matter and people tend to bat for their own class. But I think there can be an argument made that more complex playstyle should reward slightly higher dps. I don't think any of the two top performing warlock specs are so amazingly complex that they deserve to be such outliers. I mean really, cmon - any spriest worth their salt will pick up aff in a heartbeat and marvel at the personal survivability and high dps. Anyone with a pulse can do the same for destro.

[Dierdre]

Destro hard. Me burn stuff. Me skill bolt.

There. 350k dps. A good destro lock will of course destroy all meters, but you can also roll your face on the keyboard and still be above average. Not a narrow skill gap, just an insanely overtuned spec.

[Deleted]

Even mages have a higher skillcap imo. Well at least arcane and maybe fire if played to the highest possible potential. shadow is completely dumbed and simplified this expansion. it makes the spec extremely boring.

What is difficulty for you ? Do you measure that while dps'ing a dummy ? Then, yes, shadow is a piece of cake.

The fact that you are actually forced into this turret 0 movement tunneling niche to not drop below the tanks is where everything gets tricky.
I have often stated that the skill in playing a shadow is mostly dependent on how well you manage your movement, since you will do 0 damage during movement periods. And fyi, shadow is the ONLY specc in the Game that has actually no contant dps output during movement (Arcance is close but they have it better), not even fillers.

And to prevent the argument of "if i have to move during a cbolt/ArcaneBlast/Haunt/ANYSPELL i lose dmg do:

I want you all to experience the fun of having to move 4+ sec's right after throwing a DP and getting nothing out of the biggest ST talent you can chose.
You interrupt a cbolt, move where you have to , cast it again.
You Throw a DP,move where you have to, cry like a little bitch with 0 orbs.

The skill of shadow lies in its clunky,weird and fucked up design that forces you to ride a wooden bike with square wheels while everyone else cruises around in caddilacs.

You have to perfectly time your DP's with movement periods, have to deal with changing priority situations when adds are involved and die /live long enough for a new set of dots and you have proccs to even snapshot that etcetc.

A shado has to have a better knowledge about his DPET values and buff thresholds than any other class in the game in order to react properly to every given situation.

Why do you think the shadow forums have been on fire for the first 2-3 months of every patch in mop? Because it was confusing as fuck and people went bonkers with stat values / DPET values /optimal procc usage /optimal DP usage.

TL.DR : 0 movement 0 Adds 0 Changes situation e.g. a dummy -> Shadow is easy as it gets (with poor dps nevertheless)

Every other situation: Huge skillgap between players.

[Bonkura]

Could you please elaborate on this thought and I hope you won't get Demo out for the sake of this argument, because that'd just be funny.

Your last sentence could just as well be be used to sum up a warlock.

Demo probably has the highest skill cap in the game atm so that would just be unfair I agree. :-)


Affliction and Shadow is both primarily about maintaining dots. So we should really compare those specs if any.

For Shadow it's very straightforward. You keep SW:P and VT up on all targets and refresh them during procs.

For Affliction you want to power up your dots with strong procs and then maintain them for the longest time possible. You could argue this is easy because of Soul Swap but if you mess up your cycle of swapping around stronger dots you're screwed. You also need to constantly be aware of when to refresh the dots before they expire, in order to always have dots up on all targets and at the same time make sure they are as strong as possible.

This makes maintaining your main dots as Affliction harder.


Then there's the resource management.

For Shadow you have Shadow Orbs. You accumulate these by using Mind Blast on CD. That's literally all you have to do. Then when you have 3 orbs you dump then with Devouring Plague. Also very straightforward. Perhaps you're using Insanity, meaning that you should Mind Flay the target that has DP.

As Affliction you have Soul Shards. These have two uses. Meaning that you need to maintain your shards. Should you dump them with Haunt? Should you use them to reapply your dots with Soulburn: Soul Swap? Do you need to save the Soul Shards for procs/CD's, when your dots will become stronger, in order to get Haunt up?

Drain Soul and SW: D are similar mechanics. They give us resources and are used on targets below 20%.

I'd say you have to plan your Soul Shard usage way more than your Shadow Orbs.


For single target damage I'd say it's usually even. The Affliction rotation is a bit more complex but doesn't suffer from the movement issues you have as Shadow.

For multiple targets there's just so much more planning and things to maintain for Affliction than Shadow.

I really believe that the skill cap in Shadow mostly lies in optimizing your GCD's. This however shouldn't be that hard for an experienced player who knows his rotation and priorities.



PS. If we would compare Shadow with Destruction I'd personally say they are even when it comes to skill cap.

[Deleted]

PS. If we would compare Shadow with Destruction I'd personally say they are even when it comes to skill cap.

agreed but youre probably about to get flamed by shadow priest who defend their class to the dead line

[Yvaelle]

Keeping Orb Generators on cooldown, keeping ToF maximized, moving, and making the most out of Insanity without distorting your higher priorities (which is all of them) are the core challenges of Shadow this expansion. It's certainly not as hard as it has been in past expansions, but there is a lot of subtle knowledge and skills that most Shadowpriests don't make use of - and certainly the alt specs of Warlock mains are likely missing ;p

Destro and Demo take no effort, you build up power, you expend power on finishers, and they both have massive capacitors for power storage until when it is most convenient for you to use it: which means you really can't make a mistake if you tried.

Affliction is just Cataclysm Shadow priorities copied verbatim and then made much easier. You soul swap some dots onto things, you haunt things if you run out of target to swap dots to, you malefic grasp if you run out of those things, and you drain soul when things are about to die: that is the entirety of the spec.

We can talk about maintaining Haunt uptime, but that's really easier compared to our old Shadowy Empowerment which was pseudo-randomized and thus very hard to game to maximize uptime (but could be done), or we can compare it to ToF uptime - but by comparison ToF uptime is again way harder to maintain than Haunt - we have to snipe heals on low hp raid members, or do entire encounters locked in at <35% health - all you have to do for Haunt is "Do I have a shard to spare? No. Ok, then no Haunt."

In WoD they will just make Affliction into MoP Shadow, and then we will have to deal with all the Locks coming to tell us how they deserve Nobel Prizes in Science for their original work in maintaining Twist of Nether uptime, or how challenging it is to move without any spells that work on the move (WoD is removing instant spells after all).

[Goondicker]

A week ago I would have said yes, shadow priests are no good at all. But, this week I saw a skilled shadow priest keep up with the rest of the pack (heroic raiding) and was in the top 5. So I think they're definitely not the best, but they are viable.

[Dierdre]

So I think they're definitely not the best, but they are viable.

No one's saying shadow isn't viable, and whoever says so is just bad at playing shadow. Still:

1. Along with elemental it's the worst caster class.
2. Unlike elemental, it shares loot with the 2 best dps classes and tier with one of them.
3. Unlike elemental, which is the best cleave spec, shadow is the best at nothing.
4. The gap between good and bad players might be similar for shadow and for destro. The difference is that the most godawfully lame destro lock (i.e. my lock alt) will still be above average. Every. Single. Fight.

[Deleted]

Keeping Orb Generators on cooldown, keeping ToF maximized, moving, and making the most out of Insanity without distorting your higher priorities (which is all of them) are the core challenges of Shadow this expansion. It's certainly not as hard as it has been in past expansions, but there is a lot of subtle knowledge and skills that most Shadowpriests don't make use of - and certainly the alt specs of Warlock mains are likely missing ;p

Destro and Demo take no effort, you build up power, you expend power on finishers, and they both have massive capacitors for power storage until when it is most convenient for you to use it: which means you really can't make a mistake if you tried.

Affliction is just Cataclysm Shadow priorities copied verbatim and then made much easier. You soul swap some dots onto things, you haunt things if you run out of target to swap dots to, you malefic grasp if you run out of those things, and you drain soul when things are about to die: that is the entirety of the spec.

We can talk about maintaining Haunt uptime, but that's really easier compared to our old Shadowy Empowerment which was pseudo-randomized and thus very hard to game to maximize uptime (but could be done), or we can compare it to ToF uptime - but by comparison ToF uptime is again way harder to maintain than Haunt - we have to snipe heals on low hp raid members, or do entire encounters locked in at <35% health - all you have to do for Haunt is "Do I have a shard to spare? No. Ok, then no Haunt."

In WoD they will just make Affliction into MoP Shadow, and then we will have to deal with all the Locks coming to tell us how they deserve Nobel Prizes in Science for their original work in maintaining Twist of Nether uptime, or how challenging it is to move without any spells that work on the move (WoD is removing instant spells after all).

This. /10char

[Yvaelle]

A week ago I would have said yes, shadow priests are no good at all. But, this week I saw a skilled shadow priest keep up with the rest of the pack (heroic raiding) and was in the top 5. So I think they're definitely not the best, but they are viable.

Nobody is saying that we're "no good at all" - but we are the worst cloth caster by a large distance, and that's a problem when we compete for raid spots versus mages and especcially locks: who were overpowered by design all through MoP. While it's worth pointing out that our single target damage has consistently competed for the worst every tier of this expansion, it should always be caveated with the knowledge that we are primarily a multi-DoT spec, and we provide way too much raid healing in MoP.

The one thing I think that ticks us off though, is that multi-dot is supposed to be a strength, but we're not actually very good at it compared to the other specs in MoP - being terrible at single target is permissible when it means we shine on multi-DoT (TBC, WotLK) - but being terrible at single target, and average at multi-DoT, all so we can provide some raid healing: doesn't feel very satisfying.

I was the lowest DPS in the raid this week on Malkorok, even though I was in the 90th percentile for Shadow on Raidbots - do I take solace in that? Not really. I was emphasizing my HPS because we were training a new resto druid - and I did 134k HPS: which sounds pretty good. I did almost as much healing as the Resto Druid, and outhealed the Blood DK and Prot Paladin.

But how do I frame that relative to my environment? I'm either the worst DPS, or the worst Healer - but there isn't a metric that values what I am. In some ways it parallels the support we were in TBC - but without the recognition that we Supports still exist. We're supposed to be either Damage, or Healers, or Tanks now - but we're clearly the last Support spec, being penalized in our damage equal to our healing output: plus a tax for not being pure.

[Bonkura]

Keeping Orb Generators on cooldown, keeping ToF maximized, moving, and making the most out of Insanity without distorting your higher priorities (which is all of them) are the core challenges of Shadow this expansion. It's certainly not as hard as it has been in past expansions, but there is a lot of subtle knowledge and skills that most Shadowpriests don't make use of - and certainly the alt specs of Warlock mains are likely missing ;p

Putting SW:P on a target that is at sub 35% or just wait to SW: D it isn't that hard to grasp. It might be hard to optimize but it's same for every other spec with an execute.

Destro and Demo take no effort, you build up power, you expend power on finishers, and they both have massive capacitors for power storage until when it is most convenient for you to use it: which means you really can't make a mistake if you tried.

Really? Demo no effort? Haha, that's cute. I seriously doubt you've tried it out or even understand how the spec works.