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  1. #1

    How are Ret Paladins currently?

    How are Ret Paladins doing in the current state of raiding? And so far how are they looking in WoD? I just started playing again and want to finish out the expansion with just casually raiding Normals possibly a few Heroics and then start Heroic progression again in WoD. Looking for that spec I have yet to play that would provide me with some new and interesting things.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Middle of the pack for MoP, for WoD we've only seen the things we lose so far. Not sure if we'll get anything, if we don't get anything then there's even less reasons to play/bring rets to 20man raiding. Less raid spots = less room for people and even less melee, you're looking at maybe having 3-6 melee in Mythic raiding and as it sits now DK, Warrior, Rogue and Enh shaman brings raidwide cds while Ret, WW monk and Feral druids do not. Take a quick guess which classes will be played if current information stays?
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  3. #3
    link where this info is on what we are losing

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Muk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ritz345 View Post
    link where this info is on what we are losing


    Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...rds-of-Draenor

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Middle of the pack for MoP, for WoD we've only seen the things we lose so far. Not sure if we'll get anything, if we don't get anything then there's even less reasons to play/bring rets to 20man raiding. Less raid spots = less room for people and even less melee, you're looking at maybe having 3-6 melee in Mythic raiding and as it sits now DK, Warrior, Rogue and Enh shaman brings raidwide cds while Ret, WW monk and Feral druids do not. Take a quick guess which classes will be played if current information stays?
    What raidwide CD's will a warrior/DK bring in WoD exactly?


    @OP You're going to hear a bunch of kids screaming about how ret is going to be bad and you shouldn't play one.

    Currently they're upper middle of the pack with decent DPS and great utility. In WoD while we're losing devo, we still have all of our hand spells and other utility/off-healing that ret is known for (Yes that actually does help in heroic raiding). They've said numerous times that overall ret is in a good spot mechanically and all that we'll really be needing is a numbers tweak, which has yet to come. For any class. That 'll come later in the alpha/beta once they've got the core mechanics down for the other classes.

    Anyone who's doom and gloom at this point in the alpha has zero idea what they're talking
    Last edited by Vaeladin; 2014-04-20 at 09:42 AM.

  6. #6
    Warriors will bring rallying cry, which is significant. DKs bring AMZ, which will help on certain fights, but imo is one of the weakest raid-wide CDs in WoD (so far). I think Huntingbear has a point about WW and Ferals however.

    I agree with Vaeladin though. Rets are losing their raid-wide, but still have a large amount of utility and do solid dps. In a recent interview of Celestalon on Finalboss, he mentioned that Rets specifically had too much utility, so the dev(s) seem to be of this mindset as well. You will probably deal with idiots outside of mythic who don't see anything but a lack of raid cd, but I see no reason rets won't be fine come mythic (pending dps numbers, which applies to all classes).
    Last edited by Yakrion; 2014-04-20 at 09:53 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakrion View Post
    Warriors will bring rallying cry, which is significant. DKs bring AMZ, which will help on certain fights, but imo is one of the weakest raid-wide CDs in WoD (so far).
    Rallying Cry is pretty good, I agree. It slipped my mind that it was still around, I thought it was being removed outright rather than just given to DPS warriors. As far as AMZ goes though, bringing a DK for just that is a big stretch IMO.

    At the end of the day it's still extremely early in the alpha. Too early to be able to tell what classes will be preferred for Mythic. If we're still looking to be behind once the number tweaks are done, then that's when the feedback is going to be the most useful.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I had a talk with Celestalon (one of the wow devs), feral druids (all druids) will have some raid utility from their lvl 90 talents if I remember correctly. WW Monks (all monks?) will get utility in a later alpha/beta build, they're currently testing some ideas they have for the monks.
    DKs will still have grips and aoe grips in addition to amazing slows on top of their AMZ. Warriors will have 15% health shouts. Rogues 10% smoke Bombs. Druid/Monks still rather unknown. Rets will "only" have hand abilities and off heals, all of which cost us a lot of dps (which I think is fine, get some-lose some) while other classes simply hit one button and the raid get a bonus.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakrion View Post
    Rets are losing their raid-wide, but still have a large amount of utility and do solid dps.
    I'm not agree. I have never used any flash/Freedom/SS on one of my mates. It's just ridiculous to think of using ES/SS for heal your mates during progress.
    T16 = DA + BoP (only Thok). Where are useful the others skills?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Neari View Post
    I'm not agree. I have never used any flash/Freedom/SS on one of my mates. It's just ridiculous to think of using ES/SS for heal your mates during progress.
    T16 = DA + BoP (only Thok). Where are useful the others skills?
    If you're not using your toolkit, that's not a problem with the spec. Personally I find my offheals and Hands are most valuable *during* progression and then become significantly less useful as the raid gears up and the team gets comfortable with the fights.

    That said I think dismissing concerns is pretty foolish. WoW has *never* had an expac drop with Retribution numbers tuned correctly. Even in 3.0 my understanding is that we were overtuned by a large margin - that's still numbers not coming out right, just in the opposite direction than our usual. Furthermore, telling us they like where we are mechanically and then pulling Inquisition is them saying one thing then doing another, just like saying that DPS need fewer raid-wide cooldowns and then giving mages a raid-wide healing cooldown while pulling Ret's. Both of those are pretty large red flags.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord Winterstrife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neari View Post
    I'm not agree. I have never used any flash/Freedom/SS on one of my mates. It's just ridiculous to think of using ES/SS for heal your mates during progress.
    T16 = DA + BoP (only Thok). Where are useful the others skills?
    Hand of Freedom/Salvation for when slimes spawn on range (especially healers) on H Malkorok as well as Rebuke (Taunt) to bring the adds into melee range.
    Selfless Healer's Flash of Light on any fight, for anybody that is low & in danger of dying (You'll be doing your heals a favor especially in high raid wide damage situation (H Iron Jugg).

    Hand of Protection/Salvation is especially useful for Lock/Boomkins/Mages on the Terrance phase for H Garrosh as well as for Iron Tomb-ed players on H Shamans.
    Not to mention the ever useful Hand of Sacrifice (even better when glyphed) for on demand damage reduction for 1 player or 2 if talented for Clemency.

    There is more to Ret Paladin than just DAs & HoPs. It's unfortunate that we are (maybe, hoping that change it in late Alpha or Beta) losing MUCH of these utilities.

    OT: Ret stands in the middle of the DPS pack right now.
    Last edited by Winterstrife; 2014-04-20 at 01:27 PM.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterstrife View Post
    Hand of Freedom/Salvation for when slimes spawn on range (especially healers) on H Malkorok.
    Rebuke (Taunt) to bring the adds into melee range.
    Selfless Healer's Flash of Light on anybody that is low & in danger of dying.

    Hand of Protection/Salvation is especially useful for Lock/Boomkins/Mages on the Terrance phase for H Garrosh.
    You crazy dude or you have a crap dps idk. If u Flash, Taunt, Feedom, Salva during the first week of HC you were not able to kill the boss before he becomes berserk.

    For Garrosh, you need to DPS Sha of Fear only at the end of Terrace so ..

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neari View Post
    I'm not agree. I have never used any flash/Freedom/SS on one of my mates. It's just ridiculous to think of using ES/SS for heal your mates during progress.
    T16 = DA + BoP (only Thok). Where are useful the others skills?
    Sorry but especially during progress is where utility shines, every time you have a chance to save a combat ress you should take. 1gcd for you is ALWAYS worth saving a combat ress, even if your sacrifice or bops aren't called for doesn't mean you don't need or shouldn't use them. I use them on every fight, I've specced out of Selfless Healer now because farm and overgeared healers kinda make it pointless on most fights but for progress it's invaluable.
    If you don't understand that then maybe you should reconsider their value, they are extremely potent and in the hands of someone that can handle them properly can easily be the difference between a 1% wipe and a kill.
    Immersius - Selfless Healer to instant heal the mobs that can be healed, Holy Prism can be used for same purpose but effectiveness falls off.
    Protectors - Hand of Sacrifice on people that are being focused by the fixate mob, hand of protection on them if they have the bleed debuff on them so you clear it.
    Norushen - Light's Hammer can be used if you lack healing, the orbs can hurt.
    Sha - Sacrifice cleanses people from the debuff, devo for the 100 energy, selfless healer if people get stuck in prisons for too long+++
    Galakras - not much specific but lots of minor things to mitigate damage. We do however have aoe blind, ranged stun... devo for last phase.
    Iron Juggernaut - BoP yourself or another person and do the mines, devo for the knockback, selfless healer for the aoe phase to help out low health people...
    Shamans - BoP your healers that have the iron tomb debuff when it's about to expire = they can't die. Devo for meteor, lots of selfless healer potential as well.
    Nazgrim - BoP clears the bleed thing, you can taunt the shaman away from boss, again lots of potential for selfless healer.
    Malkorok - Devo for the purple zone hits to mitigate some of the damage people take from soaking, Hand of Freedom clears the slow off yourself so you'll always be free to do the melee zone (not that it's hard).
    Spoils - Sac tanks, devo when boss boxes do their specials, again lots of potential for selfless healer...
    Thok - Devo, Hand of Protection on healers, Sacrifice x2 on tanks, Light's Hammer helps a lot...
    Blackfuse - Sacrifice on tanks, Light's Hammer on mines for the slow. Always done the belt myself so can't say if there's lots of selfless healer to be done.
    Paragons - Sacrifice on tanks as the fight goes on, BoP blocks the Rapid Fire (yellow swirly bolts) and a multitude of other things on the fight. Selfless Healer is king...
    Garrosh - Sacrifice on tanks or people in malice group during the last phase, Light's Hammer can be used during whirls if your raid lack the healing throughput, we're one of the few non tanks that can taunt... Freedom can be used on tanks if they get hamstring during P1.

    Just because something isn't required doesn't mean it's bad or unnecessary, last boss on Paragons. Boss mob has huge stacks, tanks take insane damage. Are you not going to use a priest barrier on the tank, or smoke bombs? No, you'll use them even if they're not the most effective things in the world.
    Hell something really strong is if you're about to wipe on a very, very low percentage. Taunt - Bubble -> run and salvation yourself, then throw hand of protection on one of the high caster dpsers...
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  14. #14
    Dreadlord Winterstrife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neari View Post
    You crazy dude or you have a crap dps idk. If u Flash, Taunt, Feedom, Salva during the first week of HC you were not able to kill the boss before he becomes berserk.

    For Garrosh, you need to DPS Sha of Fear only at the end of Terrace so ..
    Not a team player I see, topping meters means jack if your team wiped & you could have done something that would have helped. Of course you don't spend all your GCD trying to save everyone like martyr.
    Sometimes, sacrificing that one DPS GCD can mean saving that battle ress for when shit hits the fan.

    Unless your raiding flex/normal, there is no f**k everything & tunnel DPS to win in Heroic SoO.
    Last edited by Winterstrife; 2014-04-20 at 01:41 PM.
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  15. #15
    I dunno your healer team, but during T16 a have just using an handle of LoH/Sacri.*
    Your list is true on paper but not on progress. You lost a lot of damage for weak abilities, and isn't profitable.

    For paragon, tanks take insane dmg at the end of encounter, when there are not AE damages anymore.
    The last situation has never happened to me.

    * Exept BoP for Thok and Devo for many encounters

    @Winterstrife : Never toggle Skada during progress (or just for dmg on a specific target) because i don't care. The goal is clean quickly.
    I know when use skills on mates, but it's very rare and often in the instint.
    For me, the last fight where i have "save the raid" was Jikun (during nests because our heal was fallen).
    Last edited by Neari; 2014-04-20 at 02:19 PM.

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that you should us selfless healer as soon as you hit 3 stacks of it, I'm saying that IF you have it and IF someone is on low health before a big aoe or something then use it. If that person survived you throwing that instant flash of light could've been part of the reason why he/she survived to do their damage, think about it. If a warlock is on 20% before a iron star crashes into the wall on Garrosh P1, at the moment he's doing 450k dps. If he dies the raid loses that 450k dps for the number of seconds he's then dead and then your raid lose the damage difference between a food buffed and such, do you really not think that's worth it? Same situation for healers and so on...
    This is even more important in WoD when combat resses are being reworked, you start with 1 combat ress, if you use that you have to wait 4.5min until you can use another one.
    Also, being able to judge when and when not to use your utility as a ret (paladins in general) is what makes you a great paladin. If you're just tunneling DPS you might as well reroll warlock, rogue or some other class/spec that's A) better at pure dps than a ret. B) better at what you want to be good at.
    If you can't use or wont use your utility/tools then you're not playing to the full potential, thus making you bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Neari View Post
    Your list is true on paper but not on progress. You lost a lot of damage for weak abilities, and isn't profitable.
    We're talking about MAYBE 1-3 gcds per minute that you put to non damage dealing effects, throw in movement, downtime in rotation (less of that happening with T16 4set). 1-3 GCDs worth of damage is NOT going to cost you a potential kill, how many times have you wiped on sub 2m in MoP?
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  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire NickCageFanatic's Avatar
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    People stating that Ret need to use their utility to shine during progression are 100% truthful. Hands are literally GODSENDS if you know what you are doing. Pallys have the ability to perform awesome clutch plays (using hands and off heals) whether it be PvE or PvP.

    Truth be told if a Ret finds themselves using a heal almost every other GCD in the hopes to save a teammate, either said teammate isn't standing where they are supposed to be or the healers are slacking. There is a sweet spot to where Rets should give up just an inch of dps here and there, when those moments happen...well only a great Ret will know, but imho Ret isn't a spec that should just be dpsing.

    WoD patch notes are Alpha of course, I think Rets will be perfectly viable in the next Xpac be it 10 man normal, 20 man mythic raiding, or PvP.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    It's very easy to understand why there's not many rets in top 10 world 25man guilds, DPS value when progressing with less gear matters a lot. That's why guilds drop healers as well, it's not that ret (or paladin) utility (or any utility) isn't helpful but it's simply better to get people who can do the most damage while not taking any damage. This isn't the case in 99% of the raiding community AND outside top ~20 ish gear isn't as much of a problem to progression, there's multiple rets in top 20 guilds that see progress and are valued. However if the only thing you can manage to do as a ret is dps and you don't know or don't want to use your utility then do yourself and your guild a favor and reroll to something with higher throughput, sorry but that's a fact to the current MoP state of ret.
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  19. #19
    In my experience in this tier Ret has the strongest AOE/Cleave of any melee class - the only classes that beat me on AOE are Elemental Shamans and Warlocks, though it's not a huge difference. We have the best mitigation and survival of any dps spec, the best on-demand burst cooldowns, arguably the most utility, and respectable single target dps.

    Ret is probably in the best spot it has ever been right now.

  20. #20
    Ret single target is by huge amounts the worst in the game (melee - not counting Arms here, lol). AOE is good, but only once you have the 4pc. They definitely need a bump going into WOD, ESPECIALLY since they are losing Devotion Aura.

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