Why are they doing the same mistakes?

[Bloodlight]

No no no no no fucking no.

Hunter pets bringing raid buffs is not utility. Mythic raids will have all buffs covered whether the Hunter shows up or not. I am SO tired of seeing this bullshit.


NO.

Apparently you don't even know what Hunters bring. Here, I'll enlighten you. http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...t-hunter-pets/

Battle Rez, Bloodlust, any buff or debuff in the game. Yes, you can only have one at a time, but you can CHOOSE what you bring on top of your Trueshot Aura.

Mythic raids will have all buffs covered whether the Hunter shows up or not.

That is the same for any other class in the game.

[aljung]

I honestly don't see the mistake.
Mages basically have zero (unique) raid utility. They used to be relevant for food and CC but that has fallen away. I'm glad they are bringing every class to the same level.

It's funny, because Blizzard likes to use the excuse that hybrids like Ret don't do strong damage because of their utility. But watch them give this to Mages and they won't lose 1 dps for it.

Sounds almost like a contradiction. First you give an example of the great effort that Blizzards goes to in order to balance utility and damage, then you predict that mages' better raid utility won't affect their relative damage output. You are comparing current and past relative damage with future utility.

[Deleted]

I've been looking into mage history over the last few weeks, as well as speaking to MANY Friends about mages. LITERALLY, it' the only single class that ALWAYS gets special attention, always has R1 in arena, is never replaceable due to raid utility, massive damage, cc, not to mention mobility, and the option to take 0 damage, as well as the ability to load all cd's, then go back in time and continue the massive dps.. By far the class that get's the most help. As long as I've been playing at least (Started REALLY playing Middle of TBC, and forward). Don't get me wrong, I love scraping the floor with BAD mages. But all it takes is a DECENT mage, and you'll never beat them.

This is opinion of someon who never played mage befor. Mage dont have R1 spot in arena since WOTLK. We dont have any raid utiliti BL can give you any shaman or even stupid hunter pet you cant count this as raid utiliti. Ye we had massive dmg back in WOTLK and Cata but MOP hited mages really hard and we are pretty much nothing then average dmg which is really sad for pure dmg class. Everynone got tons of cc these days. And mage mobiliti compare to other calsses is also really weak. Actually only mobile spec is fire with scorch.

[ShadowJester]

Just because they're removing some cooldowns, doesn't mean there isn't room to add one or two. Some cooldowns generally are a waste of time to have in the game, while Amplify Magic is a fairly strong one that'll be a welcomed addition to the team.

They're taking more then enough from the game, it's perfectly fine for them to deviate off course a little from time to time and add in a few extra things, because removing cooldowns isn't just about scrapping them, it's about re-aligning the game design and raid team utility.

I am literally amazed at how well reasoned this is. +10 internets.

Seriously, this isn't that big of a deal, it's a delightful addition, and in addition is synergistic lorewise. (mages being highly adept at the magic arts, having a spell that makes healing spells work better)

[snuzzle]

I don't see how the Mage is even related to this spell. It's just completely out of place.

Thoughts and opinions?

I just had to laugh about this bit. This is a classic spell brought back to the class, and people are complaining about how it was out of place. Rofl.

No, instead we threw it on literally every fucking person in the raid every 10 minutes for the healing increase. Taking the extra 240 magic damage on 20k health was usually worth it in comparison to giving every healer +250 spell power. It was like adding a tier and a half to your weapon. The fact that we have had, for about half the game's lifespan, the ability to increase healing done to the raid means that it works thematically.

This. Heck I can even remember using it in Classic and TBC, just as long as the fight was heavily physical damage, when health pools were a lot lower relative to boss damage. It's always been a powerful tool in the mage's kit. I don't see the problem.

[Well]

I just had to laugh about this bit. This is a classic spell brought back to the class, and people are complaining about how it was out of place. Rofl.

Aaaaand you obviously didn't read the 1st post.

Ugh, to all the ppl who link Amplify Magic from Wotlk/Cata...

Amplify Magic did not affect 20 players and gave them a 20% healing taken buff. Get your facts straight. It could have been called "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK TO DO WITH MAGE RAID-WIDE UTILITY WITH GHOSTCRAWLER NOT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE" and would still be the same. We are not talking about the name. :P

[Voix]

I just had to laugh about this bit. This is a classic spell brought back to the class, and people are complaining about how it was out of place.

If you want to participate in the thread, please read the OP. Thanks.

On topic:

I'll prefix this by saying I've only ever played melee (Warrior/Rogue/DK) and have always had a distaste for Mage/caster favoritism from Blizzard.

The problem is, not all classes have a raid wide defensive utility spell but bring other utility (paladins for example), the obvious solution would be to cut all raid wide defensive utility spells but then you have the issues of these classes who don't depend on one big cool down spell being better and thus we have the same problem of X class being better than everyone else. So Blizzards logic here is to provide defensive utility to those who don't have any defensive utility.

Despite my previous stated lack of taste for mages, they don't have any (real) defensive raid wide utility, so Blizzards philosophy isn't to remove all utility but to trim it down, on warriors for example we had 2 defensive cooldown, we've been trimmed to 1 defensive and this has been slightly nerfed too.

Initially i found this change strange but when you sit down and think about it, it does make sense and isn't just Blizzard making their favorite class better.

I understand the arguments tying offensive into class utility (which it quite rightly is) but i think utility should be seperated, eg 1 defensive and 1 offensive cooldown, using our example of mages (raid buffs don't count guys, not in 25, 20), they have 1 offensive (TW) and 1 defensive raid wide cooldown, if everyone can be brought to this in relative power, we'll be gravy, pulling this off shall not be easy and yes there is potential that Blizzard royally fuck it up, only time will tell though!

Edit: Would also like to put mages can decurse too, which can be counted as a defensive capability (it's meh) So are they currently over the power threshold? - A developers conundrum indeed!

[snuzzle]

Aaaaand you obviously didn't read the 1st post.

Just because youre talking out of your ass doesn't mean I didn't read it. In fact, my second part of my post was a reply to a reply from that. So again: how is something at was literally put on all 40 or 25 raid members for the past four expansions for most fights, and all fights for the previous two, somehow suddenly not relevant to the class?

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to participate in the thread, please read the OP. Thanks.

The irony of people saying this to me while not reading my full post is too much.

[Well]

Just because youre talking out of your ass doesn't mean I didn't read it. In fact, my second part of my post was a reply to a reply from that. So again: how is something at was literally put on all 40 or 25 raid members for the past four expansions for most fights, and all fights for the previous two, somehow suddenly not relevant to the class?

I will report you for that.

Secondly, it's not the same spell. At all.

[Karnak]

That's what any raid-wide cooldown is reduced to. You press it at this point during the fight, either indicated by the raid leader calling for it or by a spreadsheet against time in the fight. There are plenty of arguments against Amplify Magic, this is not one of them. You don't pop Devotion Aura for funsies or when it suits you, you don't pop Time Warp when it suits you outside of LFR.



No, instead we threw it on literally every fucking person in the raid every 10 minutes for the healing increase. Taking the extra 240 magic damage on 20k health was usually worth it in comparison to giving every healer +250 spell power. It was like adding a tier and a half to your weapon. The fact that we have had, for about half the game's lifespan, the ability to increase healing done to the raid means that it works thematically.

R.I.P. Bloodlust/Heroism.

I can count on my fingers the number of times I have cast Heroism in a raid since they gave Time Warp to Mages. If they want to cull useless buttons from my Shaman, Heroism would be a good target.

[Deleted]

I thought that the main point of reducing raidwide utility for WoD was to finally you could just bring a player, not a class. Gotta love how hard monks got pissed on in their very first expansion - minimal utility, only good reason to bring monk into 10 man (assuming equal skill) was BrM being so strong until mid-ToT nerfs.

So many fights in MoP where certain encounters were trivialized by bringing certain class... Iron Qon and lock portals, prot pala solo tanking many fights, disc topping heals while doing nice damage.

[snuzzle]

I will report you for that.

Secondly, it's not the same spell. At all.

Report me for what? Seriously, your argument holds no water, and there's nothing wrong with me telling you that.

You're right that it's not exactly the same spell. It's a percentage instead of a flat number, so it scales better; but it's also a temporary buff with a cooldown instead of being something that's just always on that the mage has to rebuff on every individual player every ten minutes.

Other than that? You can't say it doesn't fit the class when a spell to increase the healing taken by a friendly player is something mages have pretty much always had.

[nyc81991]

I main mage. And trust me that mage need raid utiliti asap. Right know there is pretty much no reason why bring mage into raid. We have 0 eaid utiliti average dmg, lowest hp pool and no real sustainable dmg reductions what makes us quishy as ***. So what the point of bringing mage into raid when you can pick up warlocks which are top dmg class with tons of utiliti and they can eat lot of dmg.

No reason to bring a Mage? They are and have been one of the top Dps for essentially WoW's entire existence. Warlocks are OP right now and need to be nerfed.

[Pandapuncher]

Best dps cooldown, best healing cooldown, best dps.

Brb, leveling a mage

- - - Updated - - -

I thought that the main point of reducing raidwide utility for WoD was to finally you could just bring a player, not a class. Gotta love how hard monks got pissed on in their very first expansion - minimal utility, only good reason to bring monk into 10 man (assuming equal skill) was BrM being so strong until mid-ToT nerfs.

So many fights in MoP where certain encounters were trivialized by bringing certain class... Iron Qon and lock portals, prot pala solo tanking many fights, disc topping heals while doing nice damage.

There is nothing wrong with that. otherwise it just gets boring.

Having a class excel in one or two fights is fine, having something being the best every fight, not okay

[Lord Pebbleton]

Mage
You will need at least a mage in your raid to do better healing from now on.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I think there's nothing to worry about. They say they "want the healer to heal through scary moments". In fact, the mage isn't healing anyone; just making it easier to heal.

[Finick]

Apparently you don't even know what Hunters bring. Here, I'll enlighten you. http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...t-hunter-pets/

Battle Rez, Bloodlust, any buff or debuff in the game. Yes, you can only have one at a time, but you can CHOOSE what you bring on top of your Trueshot Aura.



That is the same for any other class in the game.

My question to you is how is that at all utility? As it stands now any class that my pet can sub in the buff would honestly be 100% more useful to a raid than my hunter currently is. I don't mind not having utility, but people need to stop thinking that bringing buffs with pets is somehow this godly utility that is mindblowing. It's not. Honestly, I seriously wish they'd take out pet buffs so people can stop spouting out that ridiculous excuse when a Hunter has a genuine concern about their usefulness in raids. What's even more hilarious is how useless they actually are right now (is being changed, but still.) If someone dies after your pet sends the buff out, jokes on them because they have to wait for it to come off CD to get it again, lol!

They need to remove all of these hybrid raid wide defensive cooldowns and stop randomly giving them to classes that don't need them. I see a lot of people say the game would be boring if they were taken out/fights didn't need them, but you know what? Welcome to playing a freaking hunter, or a mage. It's an arms race and in the end no one wins when you have 723 defensive cooldowns to account for, and fights balanced around that idea and playstyle.

[Florena]

R.I.P. Bloodlust/Heroism.

I can count on my fingers the number of times I have cast Heroism in a raid since they gave Time Warp to Mages. If they want to cull useless buttons from my Shaman, Heroism would be a good target.

The thing about bl/hero/tw/hysteria is that this happens whenever any two people with the buff are in raid. Two shamans? Mage and a bm hunter? Doesn't matter what the combination is, with the exception of a few fights like Spoils having 2 heroisms gives you n o benefit.

[cFortyfive]

and is being given to the strongest dps class for all of WoW.

Even if that was true which it isn't you have no idea how tuning will turn out to be in wod.
I have to agree though that it doesn't make all to much sense.

how useless they actually are right now

Reality is hunter wasn't that bad this addon and the mobility needs to come at some price.

[Enfilade]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like healers should be the only ones with raid-wide utility. DPS and tanks alike should only be focused on personal survival.

[nyc81991]

Even if that was true which it isn't you have no idea how tuning will turn out to be in wod.
I have to agree though that it doesn't make all to much sense.

Reality is hunter wasn't that bad this addon and the mobility needs to come at some price.

Mages have been one of the top dps in essentially every raid tier the game has ever had and I can't ever think of a time where Mages weren't one of the best in PvP.