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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Honor gear can't be upgraded. Honor boots don't have two sockets. Honor trinkets are garbage for PvE. Honor gear has PvP socket bonuses instead of actually beneficial ones.

    Honor farming is a good way to pad your item level, but it's not "identically useful" to actual PvE gear. For most, the Shado-Pan Assault trinket is better than the timeless isle 535s, and so are the crafted 522 boots with two sockets.
    Honor gear is far from padding, the difference is so miniscule in slots apart from trinkets, and pvp pieces can actually be amazing. Just been gearing my paladin's offspec (prot) a bit and here are the pvp shoulders:
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=100690/g...aled-shoulders
    The other options are what? Vendor shoulders from ToT rep without socket with hit/crit or dodge/hit, ToT normal shoulders (that you still need luck on) with crit/haste or dodge/parry both with 1 socket, or ToT tier shoulders, that have 2 sockets but a worse itemized hit/mastery. I'll keep my amazingly itemized "ilvl-padding" pvp shoulders thank you very much. PvP power socket bonuses happen, but not on all pieces and even if they do, the difference is pretty marginal anyway. If you would even go for the socket bonus in the first place on the PvE piece.

    And yeah, eventually PvE items will win out because you can valor upgrade them. However, we're talking about gearing (new) characters here, who don't have infinite valor and probably won't waste the 1000 per week on upgrading their worst 522 pieces. Even more so if you consider they'll be buying 1 or 2 valor trinkets, which is the only thing you really shouldn't get from honor.

    On top of all that, they're soooo easy to get it's ridiculous. Even if there's a 522 PvE item that is better in a certain slot, you still need luck to have it drop, compared to doing a handful of dungeons and be guaranteed to have a piece that will give you - say - 99.9% same output.

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    It fills me with such joy what people have turned into. I'm 7/14 heroic, trying to find Flex groups for my alt. I get turned down by everyone cause my alts ilvl is 532.
    Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's pretty crappy that people want me to carry the alts they are too lazy to gear up on their own just because their guild carried them to 7/14H. Oh, wait, that's not what you were saying? Oh, I see. Do you really, actually want every PUG leader to create a sliding scale of item levels indexed by your "main's" heroic progression? Would you do that? I bet you wouldn't.

    LFM Fresh Flex 2 - need 2 heals and 7 DPS - 510+ if you're 14/14H, 515+ if you're 12/14H, 520+ if you're 10/14H, 525+ if you're 9/14H, 530+ if you're 8/14H, 535+ if you're 7/14H ... Oh, looks like you didn't make the cut, anyway.

    Your 7/14H means nothing. My raid carried a recruit to 7/14H on his trial week and then I watched him turn around and advertise himself as 7/14H in recruitment posts as if he'd done the work to get there. We have subs who do maybe 70% of the output they should who are 10/14H because they were the only available option when someone else was absent. We just had our worst DPS poached by a guild who's switching to 25. He doesn't even play his main well and he was pissed off that we wouldn't carry his 522 priest (who did less DPS than my disc priest in shadow spec and less healing than the tanks in disc spec) on cleanup nights. Your post sounds exactly like him.

    Meanwhile, I have an alt who got to 550 average item level with zero flex or normal SoO kills and three LFR wings completed (wing 1 twice and wing 2 once - two pieces of LFR gear), another alt that's 571 from running in a 25-man GDKP, a brand new 90 that was 536 after two weeks and another that's barely seen SoO sitting at 564 (maybe 30 kills of all bosses combined on normal and heroic). You're lazy and your alt is probably bad because of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    On top of all that, they're soooo easy to get it's ridiculous. Even if there's a 522 PvE item that is better in a certain slot, you still need luck to have it drop, compared to doing a handful of dungeons and be guaranteed to have a piece that will give you - say - 99.9% same output.
    Your cherry-picked example doesn't demonstrate that. Honor gear is not 99.9% the same as valor gear. Even one crummy PvP power socket bonus is more than 0.1%.

    Your hyperbole aside, I didn't say honor gear was bad. I said it's not identical to PvE gear in usefulness for PvE and that's not debatable, it's a simple fact.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraftwerk View Post
    Hmm probably should have mentioned I quit last August, just as SoO was being released, and I was running ToT LFR a lot. I have just resubbed; I am trying to run LFR as I said and that doesn't work because the groups consist of bought characters or plain stupid people. And also, if you read my post correctly you would see even if I ran LFR for weeks, I wouldn't have an iLvl that matches the absurd requirements of 545 for example for flex.

    Any other suggestions how else I should upgrade my ilvl sir? I am using my valor to buy 522 stuff obviously, but besides that, I am not getting much higher! And when I am not allowed to join flex, I can't see the point in me carrying on playing haha.
    You have a lot more options than you're letting on.

    1. SoO LFR gear is ilvl 528 and can be upgraded to ilvl 536. Just getting LFR gear in every slot will get your ilvl high enough for groups to take you for at least Flex 1/2.
    2. Ordos drops 559 gear for multiple slots (upgradable to 567).
    3. The Celestials drop 553 tier legs/gloves
    4. There are craftable 553 legs and belts
    5. You can farm Burdens of Eternity on Timeless Isle and use them with the 496 armor tokens to get 535 items in every slot (except trinket and weapon).
    6. Legendary cloak is ilvl 608 and takes about 2 months (but 2 months of mostly doing stuff you would be doing anyway to gear up).

  4. #84
    Your hyperbole aside, I didn't say honor gear was bad. I said it's not identical to PvE gear in usefulness for PvE and that's not debatable, it's a simple fact.
    With not identical you mean "can be worse but can also be better" I assume? Yeah that is a fact, like I showed you a 522 PvP piece outperforming all 522 PvE options. Just like there are 522 PvE pieces outperforming 522 PvP options. A lot of PvP slots you can actually chose the itemization which is amazing for certain specs. Not all specs even go for socket bonuses so if there's +pvp power it doesn't even matter for them. The fact that there's actually PvP items outperforming PvE ones means that the difference will be very marginal either way, and I severly doubt you could see if someone is in full 522 PvP or PvE gear just from his performance (bar trinkets ofcourse).

    Which isn't even the main point to go for them when trying to gear up, but it's sooooo much easier and better time/reward ratio than trying to pug ToT normal and get lucky with specific drops. Ideally you'll do both ofcourse, especially for trinkets.

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  5. #85
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    ..and I love it how every piece of shit that happens automatically gets blamed on the ENTIRE raiding community.

    Here is an idea: How about YOU create a group and run it by YOUR rules. As a 7/14 HM raider that should be rather obvious, right? I mean..you can make threads and complain, surely you can run your own group and help yourself? And you can invite all the ilv 535 alts who are in the same boat as you and make experience matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    I have seen some lame excuses too. Like "Just because you can raid heroics on one character doesn't mean you know how to play another that well".
    Actually that is what riles me up about the whole "Oh you need proving grounds on every character in WoD and screw it that you have raided since 204 on a dps, a tank, a healer...we still make you jump through hoops again"
    Last edited by det; 2014-04-22 at 04:45 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #86
    Like others have said, just make your own group. Yes it sucks waiting to fill the group, but if you absolutely need to do flex, do what you have to to get it done. I was bored last night, formed a flex group on my boosted 510 warrior with some guildies, some just freshly boosted themselves, and other pugs, cleared thru to wing 3. Didn't do last one because it was late, but pretty sure we could have done it. We were all just messin around in mumble laughing at how bad our alts were, so basically having fun. It is all about what you make of it I guess.

  7. #87
    I'd agree with ilvl requirements being absurd for most PUGs, but unfortunately most people only care about facerolling the intended content as fast as possible, and preferably getting carried in the process. It's a shame really, I still enjoy taking on a challenge and I'm sure there are plenty of other players out there that do too (raiding HCs, aiming for realm best CM times and whatnot) - best thing to do is get comfortable enough with starting your own PUGs and setting your own requirements.

  8. #88
    I'm not sure if this thread is full of people who actually need greater than 532 ilvl to do flex themselves or full of people who just think they're that much better than their fellow raiders. Either way, it's pretty idiotic to say that "7/14 heroic means nothing" but then saying that X ilvl does "mean something" as far as being qualified to enter flex. The sorts of ilvls people ask for for flex, however unreasonable, are much easier to obtain/get carried to than a 7/14 heroic achievements.

  9. #89
    Some PVP gear is better for raiding than some PVE gear is, depending on itemization/etc. I do find that people who are more experienced (not necessarily doing heroics) tend to do more damage, take less damage, and are generally more effective on their alts at lower ilevels than people who are new. A lot of raid leaders (including me) are willing to cut more experienced people some slack on ilevel, though it probably won't be explicitly advertised.

    With that said, there are "newbie runs" on oqueue/open raid on a regular basis, with a minimum in the 500-510 range for the first couple of wings. Melee DPS can still struggle to get in even if they're more geared, since there's a widespread perception that they struggle more than ranged. I frequently wind up dragging them with me as a package deal, or starting my own run, depending on how many friends/guildies are interested in going.

  10. #90
    Easy solution would be to give some sort of loot roll bonus to everyone if the average item level of the group is low (=intended for the raid) instead of everyone being overgeared. That would make people to want less geared members in the raid. Although naturally everyone would min/max that too.

  11. #91
    You must have had really bad luck then. Linking my best HC achi (this also worked when I didn't have 14/14) + convincing the RL that you are a better player than 99% of the pug players he has to choose from is usually enough.

    If they still respond with some retarded "your gear isn't good enough", when I did Flex with iLvl 500 alts when it was released, better find another grp, because a run with such a retarded leader, couldn't possibly do anything else but fail and disband on the first boss.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  12. #92
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukeem View Post
    If you can't beat them, join them. Be one of those douchebags who ask for 560+ when you're 530. Yeah it's scumish but it works.
    I don't think it's douche-baggy.

    How I see it is if someone sets up a run, it doesn't matter what gear they have.

    Some guy set up a 25 man normal pug the other week, we got to Thok. He was in greens, but no-one cared since he spent 30-40 minutes setting up the group.

    #respect

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    Having an ilvl that low when better gear is dripping left right and center is nobody's fault but your own.
    I have yet to find a single raid in MoP where the enrage timer was actually a problem, unless a bunch of players die, which I'm remarkably good at not doing. That should count for something.

  14. #94
    I get into plenty of flex groups on my half pvp half pve geared WW monk sitting at 531 IL , just gotta look for the right ones.

  15. #95
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    It fills me with such joy what people have turned into. I'm 7/14 heroic, trying to find Flex groups for my alt. I get turned down by everyone cause my alts ilvl is 532. No one cares about experience anymore.

    I have seen some lame excuses too. Like "Just because you can raid heroics on one character doesn't mean you know how to play another that well".

    Yes I'm ranting. Cause I have been trying to find raid groups for my alt for weeks now and turned down cause everyone wants 550+ ilvl + Leg Cloak for even Flex groups.
    form your own groups, problem solved. even a drool bucket derp can handle 'leading' a flex group... it takes marginally more effort then 'leading' a lfr group... well maybe considerably less since lfr is more like herding cats which is quite difficult... but really, get some people, get a group, only real work youll have to do is maybe assigning groups for nourshen depending how many you take, setting a tower group for galakras, and spliting groups for spoils... maybe throw down a few raid markers here and there... thats about it... im sure if you made it to 7/14h on one toon youre more then capable of slaping a shipshod group together capable of clearing a few flex wings to gear an alt.

    if you choose not to thats your problem, dont gripe to us about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I don't think it's douche-baggy.

    How I see it is if someone sets up a run, it doesn't matter what gear they have.

    Some guy set up a 25 man normal pug the other week, we got to Thok. He was in greens, but no-one cared since he spent 30-40 minutes setting up the group.

    #respect
    agreed but the fact remains most dont understand the annoyances of leading, or the fact theyd never see group content without someone willing to step up and take charge, so they gripe and complain when said person isnt decked out as well

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Either way, it's pretty idiotic to say that "7/14 heroic means nothing" but then saying that X ilvl does "mean something" as far as being qualified to enter flex.
    cause both of them means nothing - everytime someone whisperes with X/Y HC exp he should be told "then bring in your hc raiding char instead this crappy 520 itlv alt u probably play first time in months/years and most probably u perform at best 50 % of what its capable to perform on this lv if not even worse"

    at this point of expansion theres a ton of people who got carried somehow in hc - either they got pugged cause guild lacked people, or were ultra lucky and got trialed and carried and then just denied but now they have hc chievos to toss around misleading people.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Yourcatdead View Post
    Not even on alts. Having a problems with my Holy Paladin finding flex. Cleared all of normal SoO, have a 540 ilvl. However I can't get into a Flex 1 group because 550+
    I cleared all of Flex with an ilvl of 511 on my holy paladin, but that was in a guild group. I was pulling my weight, everything was 2healed and the other healer was below 520 aswell. It's unthinkable to join any pugs tho, even when i mention this and have improved my ilvl to 530+. The point is i can heal every single boss with my eyes closed and my hands tied behind my back, but nobody wants me. Their loss anyways.

    Having ilvl requirements above the ones listed within the games signup tool (not the raidfinder), it's always stupid nomatterwhat. Atleast this makes it easy to see what groups to avoid, but sadly that means pretty much all groups have stupid leaders...

    Also, my boosted alliance warrior is pulling over 200k dps with an ilvl of 501. Yes, i have a garrosh heirloom weapon.

  18. #98
    My experience in MoP has been that gearing up is relatively painless as long as you keep at it. Don't get discouraged if you find that this week you wasted all your rolls on gold and didn't get enough RnG love on lfrs and flexes. Eventually it will work itself out. I remember resubbing my 505 DK on New Years' Eve, and hitting 560 in late March. You gotta do it in phases of course. Farm burdens first while doing SOO LFR, then start doing Flexes regularly, then looking for a normal guild, then farming 553+ gear that way. I would be extremely surprised if someone with 7/14H experience would have difficulty gearing up an alt. Hell, a month ago I boosted a hunter and I just hit 550 tonight. That's almost a 70 ilvl difference in just a few weeks. But you gotta want it.

  19. #99
    I specify a fairly high item level for another reason not yet mentioned. The raid fills up faster. That's right, people with good gear for the most part want to group with other people with good gear. I can throw a group up in oqueue with a 520 minimum item level and take 20 minutes to get a group, even if I plan on taking higher item levels only. Switch that minimum to 550 and it will fill in 5 minutes. Just the way it is.

  20. #100
    It died in Wrath when the Gearscore addon was created.

    We are nothing but a number now, it's such a shame.

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