1. #1

    Thok 10-Heroic +++ Need Help

    Hello,

    tomorrow we have our first evening of progression on Thok Heroic 10 men. I know there are lots of threads on thok and the CD rotation, but unfortunatetly I found none with a similar setup. So I'm looking for some advice for our setup on how to use cooldowns properly in order to survive the first phase.

    Our Setup is:

    Tanks: Blood-DK, Warrior
    Healer: Druid, Resto Shaman, Discipline Priest
    DD: Enhancer Shaman, Elemental Shaman, Warlock, Mage, Shadowpriest

    Our problem is - we have no paladin or Rouge - what should we do ?

    Our plan for tomorrow- is it totaly wrong or a good idea ?

    4 - Ancestral Guidance (Enhancer)
    7 - Healing Tide (Enhancer)
    10 - Demoralizing Banner (Protwarri)
    11 - Rallying Cry (Protwarri)
    12 - Vamp (Shadow)
    14 - Ancestral Guidance (Elemental)
    16 - Healing Tide (Elemental)
    18 - Healing Tide (Resto Shaman)
    20 - Spiritlink Totem (Resto Shaman)
    23 /24 - Power Word: Barrier (Disc)



    Is there anybody who can help us ?

  2. #2
    With your setup, I'd say:

    First cd on 5 (it doesn't start hitting max speed before 5):

    5: AG (enhance).
    7: AG (ele).
    9: Healing tide (ele).
    11: Demo+rally.
    13: Healing tide (enh).
    15: Healing tide (resto).
    19: Assuming the druid is using SOTF, he can tranq at this point (time it in between screeches) and get atleast 75% of the healing from it out before he gets interrupted.
    21: Stack inside a PW:B and wait for the phase to push.

    Enter Poison/Bat phase:
    4-5 stacks (when bats have landed): Spriest VE.
    6 Stacks: Ele shaman AG.
    7 Stacks: Enh Shaman AG.
    9: Resto shaman Ascendance.
    11: Stack up inside a spirit link totem and let the phase push (only getting to 12-15 is fine).
    Repeat the first rotation in the ice phase.

  3. #3
    Probably the only thing to add is put the SP near the back and have them align themselves so divine star hits as many people as possible. It's outrageously strong in stacked fights. (ie don't take halo)

  4. #4
    I wouldn't run with two tanks, depending on gear (ie: protector trinket), player skill and the better offspecc/-gear just have either prot or blood respecc for this fight. Use tranq early on due to the lack of interrupt immunity and prepare for playing the fire phase. At the current state of the game (full upgrades, gearlevel 570+) your team shouldn't need to go past 20ish stacks on normal + ice phase with a super quick frost phase (7-8, basically just clump up as soon as the bats are dead).

    Kite until 11.9 frenzy stacks, shouldn't be an issue with the warlock gate. This should allow your 3 minutes healing cooldown to be ready again for the two longer phases. For fire: just play as long as possible but don't risk anything, there's another kiting phase afterwards.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    I wouldn't run with two tanks
    I would definately run 2 tanks. No point in running 1 really.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    I wouldn't run with two tanks, depending on gear (ie: protector trinket), player skill and the better offspecc/-gear just have either prot or blood respecc for this fight. Use tranq early on due to the lack of interrupt immunity and prepare for playing the fire phase. At the current state of the game (full upgrades, gearlevel 570+) your team shouldn't need to go past 20ish stacks on normal + ice phase with a super quick frost phase (7-8, basically just clump up as soon as the bats are dead).

    Kite until 11.9 frenzy stacks, shouldn't be an issue with the warlock gate. This should allow your 3 minutes healing cooldown to be ready again for the two longer phases. For fire: just play as long as possible but don't risk anything, there's another kiting phase afterwards.
    1: 2 tanks are much safer than 1.
    2: Tranq early is useless. As I already pointed out, soul of the forest means you get the major part of your tranq out between screeches. If you tranq at 3-4 stacks (it reaches max speed at 5, as already mentioned) it's completly wasted because your healers should be able to heal 3-4 without a cd anyway.

  7. #7
    Really? I thought it was really easy and quite safe to 1 tank it as a prot paladin. Can understand if lower gear but in the gear most guilds now have on thok hc, I dont understand why you wouldnt 1 tank it if the other tank has a viable dps offspec. We sometimes do it with a dk 1 tanking it, and its a bit unreliable, I think he dies like 1 time in every 5 pulls, particular if he forgets to swap trinkets before fight, but also seemed quite doable. But overall I think 1 tanking it is perfectly viable and not really something to steer away from if tanks feel comfortable doing it. If he needs a bit of help resto druid and disc have pretty good cooldowns to give him at critical points. And there really only really a few critical points, stacks above 6 on first part of thok, tanking jailer if when he enrages(can always soothe him) and you have stacks, tanking bats and boss and when you get into iceblock on ice phase.
    I would suggest you use your warrior to solo tank tho, its a lot more stabile than dk.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Imagidin View Post
    Really? I thought it was really easy and quite safe to 1 tank it as a prot paladin. Can understand if lower gear but in the gear most guilds now have on thok hc, I dont understand why you wouldnt 1 tank it if the other tank has a viable dps offspec. We sometimes do it with a dk 1 tanking it, and its a bit unreliable, I think he dies like 1 time in every 5 pulls, particular if he forgets to swap trinkets before fight, but also seemed quite doable. But overall I think 1 tanking it is perfectly viable and not really something to steer away from if tanks feel comfortable doing it. If he needs a bit of help resto druid and disc have pretty good cooldowns to give him at critical points. And there really only really a few critical points, stacks above 6 on first part of thok, tanking jailer if when he enrages(can always soothe him) and you have stacks, tanking bats and boss and when you get into iceblock on ice phase.
    I would suggest you use your warrior to solo tank tho, its a lot more stabile than dk.
    Issue is that it strains the healers more (need to pump more healing into the target with double the debuffs he'd otherwise have) and your melee can't attack bats at all (which is the only "hard" part of the entire fight).

  9. #9
    solo tanking is quite fine I do it every week as a monk tank with no issues. Only time its the tiniest bit iffy is during the end of the first p1 but the rediculous dmg I put out makes a huge difference.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xulyp8N5EvU

    your healers don't really have any other uses for their tank cd's otherwise so may aswell just chain them and gain alot of dps making the fight shorter.

    I would 100% suggest getting any sort of paladin tho they are invaluable for the fight. Ele shaman bop with AG+Asc during bats is stronger then a healing cooldown and the bats die really quick so its a 2 for 1 bonus.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Issue is that it strains the healers more (need to pump more healing into the target with double the debuffs he'd otherwise have) and your melee can't attack bats at all (which is the only "hard" part of the entire fight).
    I dont get single target heals, earthshield and hots from druid = gg, how does that strain healers? Our dk tank needs a small bit of attention, but I dont even need external cds. Eternal flame is more than fine healing + own cooldowns.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Issue is that it strains the healers more (need to pump more healing into the target with double the debuffs he'd otherwise have) and your melee can't attack bats at all (which is the only "hard" part of the entire fight).
    What is more important in a 10 man is that having an addtional tank is one less target to heal. As a paladin tank I can also help a lot with healing and raid CDs. It really makes the fight a lot easier to bring two tanks, especially if they both contribute with healing or raid cds.

    The dps gain of switching out a tank is almost non-existant if your tanks play well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imagidin View Post
    I dont get single target heals, earthshield and hots from druid = gg, how does that strain healers? Our dk tank needs a small bit of attention, but I dont even need external cds. Eternal flame is more than fine healing + own cooldowns.
    You cant compare yourself to someone that is progressing the fight right now.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakarz View Post
    solo tanking is quite fine I do it every week as a monk tank with no issues. Only time its the tiniest bit iffy is during the end of the first p1 but the rediculous dmg I put out makes a huge difference.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xulyp8N5EvU

    your healers don't really have any other uses for their tank cd's otherwise so may aswell just chain them and gain alot of dps making the fight shorter.

    I would 100% suggest getting any sort of paladin tho they are invaluable for the fight. Ele shaman bop with AG+Asc during bats is stronger then a healing cooldown and the bats die really quick so its a 2 for 1 bonus.
    They have a Pain Supp and an Iron Bark. Hardly something you can chain on to the tank. Your setup had the same plus 4x hand of sac's.
    That said, the dps you put out in that video is nothing really "great". Looking at your first kill, your avg ilvl was 573.2. Here's a log from that same week where our alt raid (who uses a warrior+DK tank as the OP) had 573.7 avg (so .5 higher):

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...vKTYk#fight=38

    You'll notice that despite 2 tanks, I'm putting out the same damage as you on my DK, which means that all we "lost" comparable to you is the difference between lenso and whatever another dps would have done (which, realisticly, with a tank OS, would probably be about 50K or so). Mind, we only had 2 ranged, so we obviously HAD to go for 2x tanks, but just saying... It's not really as great as you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imagidin View Post
    I dont get single target heals, earthshield and hots from druid = gg, how does that strain healers? Our dk tank needs a small bit of attention, but I dont even need external cds. Eternal flame is more than fine healing + own cooldowns.
    What firefly said.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What is more important in a 10 man is that having an addtional tank is one less target to heal. As a paladin tank I can also help a lot with healing and raid CDs. It really makes the fight a lot easier to bring two tanks, especially if they both contribute with healing or raid cds.

    The dps gain of switching out a tank is almost non-existant if your tanks play well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You cant compare yourself to someone that is progressing the fight right now.
    You are like saying I cant help with healing / raid cds cuz Im tanking the boss? Doesnt make any sense, Also what are DKs and Warrior tanks going to help with?, Its completly fine and stabile to 1 tank it. It depends entirely on raidsetup if its worth it. Its not something you go no its stupid to, its a completly valid way to do it and for some setups a better to do. Wouldnt it depend on the healers how strained they are?, if healing isnt the problem but maybe getting 50k more dps in can help with pushing it before fire. Well then it would be a lot better to do. I repeat it does NOT make the fight a lot easier to 2 tank it, not at all. Both things are completly valid ways of handling the boss and 1 isnt really easier than the other. You have to look at the setup a lot and how they are preforming. And having 1 less person to heal? oh so my heals dont target that person? or I really care that my aoe healing which need to top everyone is hitting 1 person less? I really dont get that argument. Its not like you single target heal during p1's.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And back on topic, your group could try with less stacks and try to optimise kiting more for more dps. A triangle kite seems to work really well for the first 3 kites and then up and down. The dps requirement isnt extremely high. I dont think we went more than 20 stacks on our first kills. something like 20 > 5 > 15. The main difference we did to optimise dps to do this was optimising the way we kited to get max dps on boss. with a triangle kite your melee can stay on boss for the first 3 kites. And tank (s) should be able to kill it by themselves, or melee helping after the first 3 kites after which they can no longer be fast enough to stay on boss.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Ariandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    99
    From a restoration shaman point of view:
    1 tank can work, 2 also work.
    Not having a paladin is tricky, but definitely not impossible. With three shamans, save a stormlash for bats.
    I can give some class/role specific advice, as I can't see any logs. Glyph of riptide, glyph of chaining. I personally prefer Rushing Streams over Conductivity, as I comfortably fit a HR inbetween screeches. I roll with a crit heavy build though.

    When exactly do you guys tend to wipe though? If surviving the first phase stacked up is being a problem, it could be many things. Are you splitting the raid into 3 groups so you don't transition him too early into a blood frenzy?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Imagidin View Post
    You are like saying I cant help with healing / raid cds cuz Im tanking the boss? Doesnt make any sense, Also what are DKs and Warrior tanks going to help with?, Its completly fine and stabile to 1 tank it. It depends entirely on raidsetup if its worth it. Its not something you go no its stupid to, its a completly valid way to do it and for some setups a better to do. Wouldnt it depend on the healers how strained they are?, if healing isnt the problem but maybe getting 50k more dps in can help with pushing it before fire. Well then it would be a lot better to do. I repeat it does NOT make the fight a lot easier to 2 tank it, not at all. Both things are completly valid ways of handling the boss and 1 isnt really easier than the other. You have to look at the setup a lot and how they are preforming. And having 1 less person to heal? oh so my heals dont target that person? or I really care that my aoe healing which need to top everyone is hitting 1 person less? I really dont get that argument. Its not like you single target heal during p1's.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And back on topic, your group could try with less stacks and try to optimise kiting more for more dps. A triangle kite seems to work really well for the first 3 kites and then up and down. The dps requirement isnt extremely high. I dont think we went more than 20 stacks on our first kills. something like 20 > 5 > 15. The main difference we did to optimise dps to do this was optimising the way we kited to get max dps on boss. with a triangle kite your melee can stay on boss for the first 3 kites. And tank (s) should be able to kill it by themselves, or melee helping after the first 3 kites after which they can no longer be fast enough to stay on boss.
    I never said it was stupid or non-viable. Of course both ways are viable. I just consider solo tanking to be easier if you can bring 2 useful tanks to the fight that push high dps and help the raid.

    With their setup, if they could replace a tank with a protection paladin alt they would be extremely good off.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #16
    Druid can symbi the shadow priest for extra tranquil if you are short on healing...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Drrty South View Post
    Druid can symbi the shadow priest for extra tranquil if you are short on healing...
    Have they buffed shadow priest tranquil? Have not used it since T14 and remember it sucked then.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Have they buffed shadow priest tranquil? Have not used it since T14 and remember it sucked then.
    You'd be better off having the SP bandage people, SP tranq sucks worse than, well a really sucky thing.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You'd be better off having the SP bandage people, SP tranq sucks worse than, well a really sucky thing.
    I remember shadow priests did more healing by not channeling tranq than actually channeling it in T14, was kinda funny.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •