1. #1

    Killing spree during deep insight or off CD?

    I have bee trying a lot of different ways of using killing spree and I thought it would be good to ask some high end rogues on here.

    Should I..
    A. Hold killing spree until deep insight
    B. Use Killing spree on CD as soon as it comes up
    C. Hold killing spree until I am at least in green or yellow

    Just something that has been bothering me because I havent know if I am doing it correctly or not.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Viridiancity's Avatar
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    I think the consensus is that if you have AOC, use it on cooldown. Otherwise it's a slight DPS increase to delay it until deep insight.

  3. #3
    On CD, always.

    The only weird situation is if it comes up during AR+SB. If you can get to low energy (40 is the breakpoint iirc) and get the entire KSp off (3.5s) while both AR and SB are up, then stack KSp on AR+SB. If the above requirements are not met, hold it until after AR+SB ends.

    In its current form, BG has no substantial impact on your play. There are only two reasons to pay attention to it: Anticipaion gaming (i.e., pushing finishers into higher Insight levels), and pooling (in Yellow to extend it, and in Red when you can't fit another finisher so you can push Green faster).

    This might change in WoD with the RvS revamp (no longer advances BG and does more damage) and buff to Red (30% to 40%).
    Last edited by Squirl; 2014-04-21 at 07:33 PM.

  4. #4
    If you're a hit away from advancing your insight and you aren't going to cp cap, then it may be worthwhile. Same for your trinket. You have to be really careful though because the cd is so short that you could very easily lose out on an additional KS over the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianWRA View Post
    I think the consensus is that if you have AOC, use it on cooldown. Otherwise it's a slight DPS increase to delay it until deep insight.
    I don't think delaying to deep insight has ever been optimal at any point since they added the mechanic.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2014-04-21 at 07:02 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    On CD, always.

    The only weird situation is if it comes up during AR+SB. If you can get to low energy (40 is the breakpoint iirc) and get the entire KSp off (3.5s) while both AR and SB are up, then stack KSp on AR+SB. If the above requirements are not met, hold it until after AR+SB ends.

    In its current form, BG has no substantial impact on your play. There are only two reasons to pay attention to it: Anticipaion gaming (i.e., pushing finishers into higher Insight levels), and pooling (in Yellow to extend it, and in Red when you can't fit another finisher so you can push Green faster).

    This might change in WoD with the RvS revamp (no longer advances BG and does more damage) and buff to Red (30% to 40%).
    The deep insight buff is actually to 50% and that's going to penalize you for delaying it more than it does now. I did some back of the envelope calculations and based on a 39sec BG cycle, delaying a 30% deep insight by 5 sec is a very very slight dps increase, but at 50% deep insight delaying it by 5 sec is a fairly significant dps loss. If the BG perk increased shallow moderate and deep insight each by 10% rather than just deep insight by 20%, it would make it more neutral like before (but it would also make it even more important to get out of no insight asap).

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    The deep insight buff is actually to 50% and that's going to penalize you for delaying it more than it does now. I did some back of the envelope calculations and based on a 39sec BG cycle, delaying a 30% deep insight by 5 sec is a very very slight dps increase, but at 50% deep insight delaying it by 5 sec is a fairly significant dps loss. If the BG perk increased shallow moderate and deep insight each by 10% rather than just deep insight by 20%, it would make it more neutral like before (but it would also make it even more important to get out of no insight asap).
    I must have read it as +20% going into Red instead of just +10% rather than +20% on top of the +30% buff. That's pretty huge, thanks.

    So, pooling in Yellow will probably go away in WoD (not that it's even a big thing now with our huge haste values)? I suppose they kind of had to make Red way better since if they left the Insight values the way they are now, I assume just getting to Yellow and staying there as long as possible (~75s) before pushing Red would be optimal if RvS will indeed do the same damage as SS.

    Also, does this mean we still won't really be paying attention to BG in order to line it up with CDs? I think their design intent was to make it a more active mechanic.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I must have read it as +20% going into Red instead of just +10% rather than +20% on top of the +30% buff. That's pretty huge, thanks.

    So, pooling in Yellow will probably go away in WoD (not that it's even a big thing now with our huge haste values)? I suppose they kind of had to make Red way better since if they left the Insight values the way they are now, I assume just getting to Yellow and staying there as long as possible (~75s) before pushing Red would be optimal if RvS will indeed do the same damage as SS.

    Also, does this mean we still won't really be paying attention to BG in order to line it up with CDs? I think their design intent was to make it a more active mechanic.
    I did more detailed math on it today. It will be a dps loss to delay deep insight for very long, but the loss is low enough that you will want to delay by no more than a couple seconds to line up with cooldowns. But lining up a 50% BG during cds/procs will be a gain. It's a good skill differentiator.

    Wowhead datamining has RvS at 120% weapon damage for 40 energy (3% per energy) and sinister strike at 130% (would be 156% after the improved SS perk, or 3.12% per energy). At this point SS is more damage-per-energy but RvS is less energy per combo point, so not sure which would result in more damage during deep insight. I'd wager RvS due to eviscerate frequency.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2014-04-22 at 02:41 AM.

  8. #8
    Damn, I guess that means they aren't going to take SS back down and we're stuck with it at 50. 50 energy SS feels sooooo slow, and its going to be even worse if its like that at the start of the expansion.

  9. #9
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Damn, I guess that means they aren't going to take SS back down and we're stuck with it at 50. 50 energy SS feels sooooo slow, and its going to be even worse if its like that at the start of the expansion.
    Truth.

    If anyone wants an exercise in frustration, try playing combat in challenge modes and relive the start of every expansion woes.
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  10. #10
    Dreadlord DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Anyone bothered to try that expose armor thing at low energy levels?
    "Haste will fix it" - Ghostcrawler

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Truth.

    If anyone wants an exercise in frustration, try playing combat in challenge modes and relive the start of every expansion woes.
    I have done a couple recently as combat... it really just is not fun to play, but I'm too cheap to bother dropping a spec for assassination everytime I go to do one when combat is still viable even if not fun.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    Anyone bothered to try that expose armor thing at low energy levels?
    You mean this thread?

    I thought the conclusion was SimC was erroneously modeling EA as procing poisons, which made it look way better than it actually was. Things just fizzled out after that.

    I'm not really sure what that has to do with this thread, though.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Controlling BG and advancing Restless blades faster...
    "Haste will fix it" - Ghostcrawler

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    You mean this thread?

    I thought the conclusion was SimC was erroneously modeling EA as procing poisons, which made it look way better than it actually was. Things just fizzled out after that.

    I'm not really sure what that has to do with this thread, though.
    It was later fixed, and preliminary analysis suggested that it was still advisable under specific scenarios (like deep insight and out of AR+SB). But the gains were marginal. I think the MG+poison bug caused people to tune out the rest of the conversation.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I have done a couple recently as combat... it really just is not fun to play, but I'm too cheap to bother dropping a spec for assassination everytime I go to do one when combat is still viable even if not fun.
    I did 9/9 as combat and I didn't think it was THAT bad. I think people tend to be hyperbolic about things like this. Sure it's going to be slower than in your 17-19k haste SoO gear, that's a given. But you know what--so is assassination. And combat IS faster paced than assassination, even at 463 ilevel.

  16. #16
    On a ~4 minute, Patchwerk style fight (Iron Jugg) w/ HWF AoC, it's best to save KSp for the tail end of Deep Insight. See #12 Heroic Iron Juggernaut parse on WoL for timings.

    To answer your original question in short, always on cooldown, with the disclaimer of properly syncing AR with BG. In endgame gear, you will never have to worry about using KSp twice between AR's. This means you're only using 1 KSp for every AR, even though the KSp cooldown is shorter. In practical rotation, you'll usually have ~20s left on KSp cooldown when AR comes up. This means that when you use AR, you're going to "waste" some Restless Blades procs because KSp is off cooldown. This is normal. As long as you toss in the full KSp before Deep Insight wears off, you're golden.

    You might notice some BG cycle "regression" (meaning AR will come off cooldown later into your BG cycle as the fight gets longer). This means you might have to KSp during the last few seconds of AR (and thus energy cap) to get in the full KSp during Deep Insight. If the fight is almost over, it's worth doing this.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RaXoR246 View Post
    On a ~4 minute, Patchwerk style fight (Iron Jugg) w/ HWF AoC, it's best to save KSp for the tail end of Deep Insight. See #12 Heroic Iron Juggernaut parse on WoL for timings.
    Sorry, but a single parse doesn't prove anything to be optimal. Or are you saying that nobody could beat that parse without also doing that, as in the top 12 all did it the exact same way?

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