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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    I see quite a few saying losing RF is fine because it didn't really change gameplay that much and I have to ask...which of our CDs actually changes our gameplay at all? RF at least had a noticeable effect on your cast time and Focus regen. Stampede and Crows are basically just DoTs with cool visual effects.
    I agree. Stampede especially is probably the most mindless button we have but it gets to stay as a talent because it.....has more visual flair attached to it?

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  2. #22
    bestial wrath and lock and load are the game changers for the other 2 specs.

  3. #23
    Interesting change for sure, I've always found hunters to have more buttons to press out of all of my characters off the pull.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    To be fair. Rapid Fire is a very boring cooldown that does not add any new element of gameplay, so I am quite happy that they are removing it together with most other cooldowns in the game.
    I think Rapid Fire removal for SV and BM was the right call because BM already has an haste cd and for SV RP never felt belonged to the spec, but they should really keep it for MM as its a hard-casting spec and a CD that increases haste makes the rotation feels better and overall a good gameplay for the spec.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Beoren View Post
    I think Rapid Fire removal for SV and BM was the right call because BM already has an haste cd and for SV RP never felt belonged to the spec, but they should really keep it for MM as its a hard-casting spec and a CD that increases haste makes the rotation feels better and overall a good gameplay for the spec.
    SV does need an extra CD, and MM should really get RF back.

  6. #26
    I'm not even a huge fan of RF anyways. Something that changed the rotation for it's duration would be cool. Like, "inner beast" reduces focus cost of all abilities by 60% for 12 seconds

    Something interesting.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    I'm not even a huge fan of RF anyways. Something that changed the rotation for it's duration would be cool. Like, "inner beast" reduces focus cost of all abilities by 60% for 12 seconds

    Something interesting.
    thats just bestial wrath but its thinking along the right lines.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeys View Post
    All dots will scale dynamically in WOD and they will also be tuned properly to deal the proper dmg.
    For instance the new change is a huge nerf for affliction warlocks since they were able to soul swap and keep their dots with trinket proccs foverer.

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    We also lost stampede not completely but it's a talent now in the same tier as AMOC so you can't have both anymore.
    It will come down to the needs of the fight more sustained or more burst.
    Which are again, both incredibly brainless cooldowns like most of them in the game as of 5.4

    Removing as many of those as possible to reset the game for more intelligent additions in the future is an absolute godsend.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowyFanatic View Post
    Well, you could always be like Spriests and have no cd's and do mediocre to poop damage instead. But since I can't remember a time hunters didn't do very good damage, I think you need to go light a candle and offer up a prayer of thanksgiving if hunters wind up "like warlocks".
    Spriest damage is fine and they have lots of utility right now. They are one of the highest dps hybrids out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Which are again, both incredibly brainless cooldowns like most of them in the game as of 5.4

    Removing as many of those as possible to reset the game for more intelligent additions in the future is an absolute godsend.
    Except there not doing this in favor of more intelligent additions. They are just removing them because they think we have too many buttons and simply not replacing them with 'more intelligent abilities'.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981 View Post
    Spriest damage is fine and they have lots of utility right now. They are one of the highest dps hybrids out there.
    er, no?

    Maybe slightly better on a multi target fight but right now they're bottom of the barrel single target dps.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    er, no?

    Maybe slightly better on a multi target fight but right now they're bottom of the barrel single target dps.
    How many purely single target fights are there right now? I see what you mean in single targets fights, like on iron juggernaut where they are 9th from last, but overall dps wise (according to raidbots) they are 10th from the top, which isn't bad for having so much utility, and only being behind 2 other hybrid specs. You're middle of the pack on average and have some of the most utility in the game, next to shamans and druids. There are multiple specs that have less DPS than you and less utility than you.
    Last edited by spinner981; 2014-04-24 at 05:17 PM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981 View Post
    How many purely single target fights are there right now? I see what you mean in single targets fights, like on iron juggernaut where they are 9th from last, but overall dps wise (according to raidbots) they are 10th from the top, which isn't bad for having so much utility, and only being behind 2 other hybrid specs. You're middle of the pack on average and have some of the most utility in the game, next to shamans and druids. There are multiple specs that have less DPS than you and less utility than you.
    shouldn't trust raidbots, they fetch data from WoL and there's so many hacked/cheesed/bugged parses from there.

    Honestly have you ever played a shadow priest? Any slight hint of movement and your dps goes down the toilet.

  13. #33
    Brewmaster Cyph3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981 View Post
    Except there not doing this in favor of more intelligent additions. They are just removing them because they think we have too many buttons and simply not replacing them with 'more intelligent abilities'.
    How often do you use RF "intelligently" as opposed to just stacking it on top of other cooldowns? Or just using it on cooldown itself?

    The effects of it's removal aren't happenstance, they're deliberate. All of them. There were basically 3 goals with Hunters:

    1. Reduce CD stacking (this applies to all classes)
    2. Further differentiate the specs
    3. Reduce button bloat

    Removing this one ability actually furthers all 3 of those goals. RF wasn't a button that anyone really thought much about. You either stacked it with other stuff, or used it on cooldown. And it didn't even do that much for you, especially if you weren't MM. Reason #1 alone put it on the chopping block. Because it was one of only 2 baseline dps cooldowns we had, it's removal (along with stampedes move) results in all remaining CD's being talents or spec specific (and by the way, ancient hysteria is being given to non-exotic pets, so you could call that "baseline" now anyway). That A) makes talent choice a little more interesting and B) helps differentiate the specs. BM now stands out as the "cooldown" spec, due to having both Bestial Wrath and Frenzy/Focus Fire. Of course other changes also happened to assist with #2. And finally, simply, it's removal freed up a keybind. Maybe not for everyone, but for a LOT of people.

    So what are the downsides? Well SV and MM lost some burst ability, but only slightly, as there's still talents, trinkets, and pots for when burst is needed. And that's pretty much it. We didn't lose what I would call a signature ability, and damage is irrelevant at this point. The real reason most people are against changes like this is simply because it's a change. We don't generally like change until it's forced upon us and we see first hand that everything is still ok.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    shouldn't trust raidbots, they fetch data from WoL and there's so many hacked/cheesed/bugged parses from there.

    Honestly have you ever played a shadow priest? Any slight hint of movement and your dps goes down the toilet.
    Hacked/cheesed/bugged parses? Wouldn't that mean that the other classes also have hacked/cheesed/bugged parses? What do you expect me to trust? Your personal experience or raidbots?

    As far as the movement thing goes, that's the deal with every class. Whether you have 100% mobility or 2% mobility, blizzard factors that into your class balance. More mobility isn't just free dps, it only exists because the class is weaker in standstill compared to classes that are weak on movement fights. Once again, there are a bunch of multi-target fights this tier and shadow is not doing terribly. It probably has a higher skill cap than some other classes, but that just leaves you more room for improvement. Same thing with mobility. The less mobility you have, the more blizzard compensates you in stand still, and the less mobility you have, the more skill you can apply to moving to achieve the most you can during mandatory movement, which is something a hunter can't do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post
    How often do you use RF "intelligently" as opposed to just stacking it on top of other cooldowns? Or just using it on cooldown itself?

    The effects of it's removal aren't happenstance, they're deliberate. All of them. There were basically 3 goals with Hunters:

    1. Reduce CD stacking (this applies to all classes)
    2. Further differentiate the specs
    3. Reduce button bloat

    Removing this one ability actually furthers all 3 of those goals. RF wasn't a button that anyone really thought much about. You either stacked it with other stuff, or used it on cooldown. And it didn't even do that much for you, especially if you weren't MM. Reason #1 alone put it on the chopping block. Because it was one of only 2 baseline dps cooldowns we had, it's removal (along with stampedes move) results in all remaining CD's being talents or spec specific (and by the way, ancient hysteria is being given to non-exotic pets, so you could call that "baseline" now anyway). That A) makes talent choice a little more interesting and B) helps differentiate the specs. BM now stands out as the "cooldown" spec, due to having both Bestial Wrath and Frenzy/Focus Fire. Of course other changes also happened to assist with #2. And finally, simply, it's removal freed up a keybind. Maybe not for everyone, but for a LOT of people.

    So what are the downsides? Well SV and MM lost some burst ability, but only slightly, as there's still talents, trinkets, and pots for when burst is needed. And that's pretty much it. We didn't lose what I would call a signature ability, and damage is irrelevant at this point. The real reason most people are against changes like this is simply because it's a change. We don't generally like change until it's forced upon us and we see first hand that everything is still ok.
    First of all, no, removing rapid fire from all three specs did not differentiate the specs. I am not saying that I don't support the removal of RF. What I am saying is that this is NOT a movement towards more intelligent cooldowns and gameplay; it is a movement towards simpler gameplay and that's pretty much it.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Amethon View Post
    They want to remove button bloat for hunters so they remove a cooldown that's off the gcd. Riiiiiiight....
    Off or on GCD doesn't have anything to do with button bloat. It's another button to push.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    thats just bestial wrath but its thinking along the right lines.

    True. I only ever play survival.

  17. #37
    Brewmaster Cyph3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner981 View Post
    First of all, no, removing rapid fire from all three specs did not differentiate the specs. I am not saying that I don't support the removal of RF. What I am saying is that this is NOT a movement towards more intelligent cooldowns and gameplay; it is a movement towards simpler gameplay and that's pretty much it.
    Yes, exactly, because simpler gameplay is exactly their goal. Simple =/= shallow. Reducing the number of dps cooldowns we have means we have to be more careful with the ones we do have, and make sure to make the absolute most of them. I'd bet my mounts that we'll still see bosses with burn phases. Consider this: right now X class has say 4 dps cooldowns. They can afford to use 1, maybe even 2 of those early in a fight and still have 2 in reserve for the burn phase. Say they forgot and used one early, or someone screwed up and let and add go, so they used it to squash him fast, or whatever. Burn phase arrives, and you've still got options. Now suddenly that same class has one dps cooldown. If you use it early, or screw up and don't have it available for that burn phase, you've screwed up bad. Reducing the number we have available makes things simpler in that we no longer have to worry about macro'ing them together, or what we should stack them with, etc. But it also places more importance on what remains. There's less room for error. In terms of proper use of said cooldowns, things have gotten harder, while also getting less complex. That's the goal.
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    My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

  18. #38
    While I agree that RF was rather boring as a CD, it did allow for a moment of burst that lined up well with trinket procs, etc., especially in openers in PVE. With that gone, I would prefer a new, perhaps most interesting CD for each spec.

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