No more bear hug...

[Gemini Soul]

What they should do is remove bash and replace it with bear hug. Make it so it doesn't root us in place and if the target is immune to stun it will still do the damage or even extra damage cause the target is immune.

Cause Bear Hug>>>>>>>>Bash

[exochaft]

I wouldn't get too concerned with our toolkit and that it got slightly reduced. I'm not shedding a tear atm at what they have done to Guardians or any other tank, however, it seems quite odd that they are really bringing every other tank down to our current level of ease and simplicity instead of bringing us up to them. The only tank that seems to have any complexity left are Monks, and it's really because they haven't done much to them, outside of the QoL changes and ability pruning that they have done to everyone else.

Yes, utility and control got purged from every tank. The only tank now with a baseline stun are Paladins with HoJ. Guardians actually got hit the least, simply because they didn't have much in the first place to purge. Any meaningful utility and control is now going to come through talents, which is the way it was probably meant to be designed in the first place.

With respect to the simplicity, I think it may end up a general tanking concern versus a Guardian-specific one, however making a fairly simplistic Guardian tanking model even simpler could be a bit too much.

With respect to CC, my concern is less about the amount but more about the type and quality. If anything I'd like to see less add fights where stuns are one of the only methods of dealing with adds. It's rather annoying when your CC only works some of the time versus another CC that works almost every time (I'm sad when my racial AoE stun is usable more often than my talents). This situation turns some CC talent rows into pseudo-button bloat as they become very rarely used compared to some classes' CC talent rows. I'd be happy with Blizz shifting around what adds are vulnerable to what (*cough* Sinestra *cough*), although that may not mesh well with 20man Mythic raid comp goals.

Utility-wise, I think Guardians were in a pretty good spot, especially with Stampeding Roar. Guardian healing has been pretty strong in some aspects, although healing and speed utility is definitely being spread around other classes from what the alpha notes indicate (can't say I'm a big fan of passive AoE speed boosts from a balance perspective, but that's another thread). It'll take a while to see where everything balances out in the end, since many classes are getting new toys that will affect their utility.

A quick aside, since Raugnaut was pointing out potential "niches" for tanks, I don't know if the Guardian "niche" would really be extremely high HP since it's needed for our active mitigation to work (you could technically take away the "niche" factors from the other tanks and they'd still survive just fine). I mean what's the point if another tank's active mitigation provides the same or better EH compared to that high HP we have? It could work from a TTL perspective, I suppose. I don't know, the goal(s) seems to be unclear or unrefined at this time, but it's understandable since it's still alpha.

What they should do is remove bash and replace it with bear hug. Make it so it doesn't root us in place and if the target is immune to stun it will still do the damage or even extra damage cause the target is immune.

Cause Bear Hug>>>>>>>>Bash

I'd honestly be okay with that, it's more along the lines of warrior stuns doing damage so they're useful even in non-CC situations. The only change that'd have to be made would be making the other CC talents in that row do some damage, although it would make them immensely more used than they currently are.

[Dreyen]

The bear niche is that we have the best cooldowns, and the most available powerful cooldowns.

[Raugnaut]

A quick aside, since Raugnaut was pointing out potential "niches" for tanks, I don't know if the Guardian "niche" would really be extremely high HP since it's needed for our active mitigation to work (you could technically take away the "niche" factors from the other tanks and they'd still survive just fine). I mean what's the point if another tank's active mitigation provides the same or better EH compared to that high HP we have? It could work from a TTL perspective, I suppose. I don't know, the goal(s) seems to be unclear or unrefined at this time, but it's understandable since it's still alpha.

By "extremely high HP", I mean "It currently looks like bears will be able to get TWICE the amount of health other tanks have during a fight", thus making us a soak tank outside of our active mitigation. That multistrike proc lasts for 15 seconds, appears to roll, and grants 5% additional health per proc. MS is currently cheap, haste is currently cheap. With 50% haste and 200% MS (will most likely be obtainable at the end of the expansion), you will be able to have about.. 105% extra health after 15 seconds staying up continuasly as long as you are attacking something, if they do not change between now and then. Considering that we ALSO get a 60% stamina boost (Other tanks get anywhere from 15% (Warrior) to 40% (Monks), not to mention other +stamina things, such as armor specialization and stam buff)

Looking at it, all other tanks MS contributes to the amount of healing they need- they lessen the burden on the healers pretty much. Druids MS contributes to overall TTL- healers will have to heal MORE to top a Druid tank off then other tanks. Ima guess that the Ursa Major will be nerfed to 1% health boost rather then 5% health boost, otherwise, you'll take druids for ANY fight with ridiculously high spike damage.

So yea, when I say that the druid's niche will be highest health of all tanks, I mean it.

Also, keep in mind that it seems the healing model for the next expansion will be steady damage taken over time, slowly healed back up. Tanks won't go from 100%-70-40-10, with heals healing em back up 40% per, but rather go like 100%-90%-80%-70%, with heals healing em up 9% per, and tanks having to cover the other 1% or something.

[Dreyen]

Well, in our case, we wil need the improved HP as other tank classes improve their damage reductions i think, so its a fair deal.

Haste>Multistrike sounds ike a great stat priority, though ive generally preferred damage mitigation over hp, but having ridiculous hp sounds fun.

[Mirishka]

Is it just me, or are they stripping the class down to the bear bones (no pun intended). Can't say it makes me interested in the next expansion.

You would have said bare bones if it wasn't a pun, just saying. :P

[Raugnaut]

The bear niche is that we have the best cooldowns, and the most available powerful cooldowns.

To an extent. DKs have the most cooldowns, and their cooldowns tend to also have the highest uptime. None of our CDs can really compared with AMS when it comes down to magical damage, for instance.

Now, sure- 30% DR with near-50% uptime, 70% SI with a 2 min CD, and, of course, Might of Ursoc also boosting our HP to 30/50% are all very powerful CDs, with Might being a nice ohshit button. But, not counting the T100 talents, we only have those 3 cooldowns, wheres other classes tend to have more, except monks. (Well, theres Renewal, but it is weaker then both Enraged Regen (Warrior) and Death Pact (DK))

DKs- Army, DRW, Boneshield, IBF, Lichborn, AMS, Vamp blood, Death Pact, Necropolis.

Paladins- Argent Defender, Lay on Hands, Ancient Protector, Divine Protection, not to mention bubbles. Divine Protection will be a 50% magic damage reduction, or 20% phys damage/30% magic damage reduction next expansion. They also get a second "shield wall" with Holy Avenger.

Warriors- Not as many here. Demo shout, Shield wall, Last Stand. I guess we have Warriors beat in the CD area.

Monks- Fort brew, Zen med, T75 talent. About the same amount we have, BUT much more powerful. Fort Brew can easily be THE most powerful of the various 3 min CDs around due to both the stagger bonus and the damage reduction/stamina, plus the duration for which it lasts. Zen Med. Malk 25 heroic speaks for itself right there. Of course, if you are taking any melee damage, I suppose that its basically 90% DR for 1 hit, but still, very powerful. Finally, T75 talent- Dampen Harm or Diffuse Magic. Dampen Harm is very good- short CD, and it can affect multiples of those scary hits that you tend to need a 50% DR CD for. Diffuse Magic is pretty much won't die from magic for 6 seconds.

This also doesn't take into account all the active mitigation that all the ppl have. Monks, for instance, can currently maintain near-100% uptime on both 20% parry and 30% (35% next expansion) dodge, for 50% dodge/parry all the time, not counting baseline dodge/parry. Also, Shuffle can easily be considered the most powerful of ALL active mitigations atm, and thats not counting things like Guard, Expel Harm spammage, ect. Paladins SotR, DKs are getting that Rune Shield business next expansion, Warriors with uber-powerful Shield Barriers, ect.
Druids active mitigation, while very strong against melee swings, is currently fairly worthless against unavoidable attacks, especially those that ignore armor- we only have FR up.
We NEED those cooldowns to survive things that other tanks can take with ONLY their active mitigation.
So yea, mitigation-wise, we have powerful cooldowns because we have weak active mitigation against things that other tank's have strong active mitigation for. On the other hand, extremely high health is TTL only. With the healing playstyle next expansion, tanks probably won't be prone to burst damage like what we have now, but rather a steady amount of damage coming in, so our high-health will allow healers more breathing room for healing us.

[Mormolyce]

I'm going to miss it, though if they make guardian druids more fun than doing a tax return I'll call it a good trade.

I still don't know what they're thinking with some of the ability redesign. But it's too early to really say.

[GibbyG1100]

It is unfortunate that bear hug is going away, but if I'm being honest, I really only use it on trash, and on galakras adds. Pretty much any other use is not very effective.

[markos82]

My main spec is moonkin but I am suing bear hug when im tanking to some degree, they can remove the stun effect and only add dmg over time.

[GKLeatherCraft]

I'm not sure how I missed this, I used it in every fight, Ofcourse that is the difference between PvP and PvE I guess, against bosses it was useless, But as someone who only plays for W-PvP, I find it horrible they will remove it, It's by far my hardest hitting ability, and with the stun, it's a gorgeous ability, I shall miss this one indeed, As someone who played my Druid since I started in TBC, I do find myself not wanting to play when they remove too much=/ I guess we will see how the rest of it plays out untill release, No point getting too worked up until we know what will and won't make it into live.

[Chaosturn]

Who uses bear hug anyway?

[Trubo]

Who uses bear hug anyway?

I do whenever I'm doing my farm and get 5+ vermin to clear. Bear Hug pretty much kills one in addition to a couple of Thrash ticks.

But yeah, I won't lose sleep over this ability.

I'm not sure how I missed this, I used it in every fight, Ofcourse that is the difference between PvP and PvE I guess, against bosses it was useless, But as someone who only plays for W-PvP, I find it horrible they will remove it, It's by far my hardest hitting ability, and with the stun, it's a gorgeous ability, I shall miss this one indeed, As someone who played my Druid since I started in TBC, I do find myself not wanting to play when they remove too much=/ I guess we will see how the rest of it plays out untill release, No point getting too worked up until we know what will and won't make it into live.

It's a nice hitting ability but the stun duration is so crappy that you don't want to use it before a normal stun.

[Braindwen]

Who uses bear hug anyway?

Weekly on norushen, Galakras, Nazgrim, and Garrosh, and occasionally on spoils, immerseus, and siegecrafter. All the time while doing any content outside of raids, particularly PG and 5-mans.

The fact that you choose to ignore our hardest-hitting ability doesn't mean it should go away for everyone .

[Raugnaut]

You know, one of the reasons Bear Hug is going away is because of that damaging component. Think about it- if our MS thing remains unchanged, then we could EASILY have 3x the health of dps players in PvP. Bear Hug would be huge burst that can't be countered, and stunned a player to boot.

[Callsignecho]

You know, one of the reasons Bear Hug is going away is because of that damaging component. Think about it- if our MS thing remains unchanged, then we could EASILY have 3x the health of dps players in PvP. Bear Hug would be huge burst that can't be countered, and stunned a player to boot.

That's probably one of the many reasons they used for its removal.

[Dreyen]

snip

Other classes do have a lot of cooldowns too.. but it's the power of our cooldowns. our small cd is a 30% reduction instead of 20% with a 30s cd which is twice the availabiity or demo shout/etc..., our shieldwall is 70%, 2min cd with 2 charges... basically a super shieldwall that has more or less 3x the availability of a normal tank's shield wall, and might of urosc is a nice bonus cooldown that going to be used for the heavier situations.. which is also buffed considering we have more hp.

You also talk active mitigation, but we will most likely keep a very high total damage reduction compared to other tanks, most likely not as big however.

In the end, barkskin + survival instinct, coupled with our massive hp, will be an superpower combo to reduce any damage, and it will work on magic better than anyone else.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Bear Hug Bearly made the cut. Teehee

[Raugnaut]

Other classes do have a lot of cooldowns too.. but it's the power of our cooldowns. our small cd is a 30% reduction instead of 20% with a 30s cd which is twice the availabiity or demo shout/etc..., our shieldwall is 70%, 2min cd with 2 charges... basically a super shieldwall that has more or less 3x the availability of a normal tank's shield wall, and might of urosc is a nice bonus cooldown that going to be used for the heavier situations.. which is also buffed considering we have more hp.

You also talk active mitigation, but we will most likely keep a very high total damage reduction compared to other tanks, most likely not as big however.

In the end, barkskin + survival instinct, coupled with our massive hp, will be an superpower combo to reduce any damage, and it will work on magic better than anyone else.

Barkskin is trumped by Divine Protection in the magic damage reduction category, slightly better in physical damage reduction category. Our shieldwall IS the strongest out of all the shieldwalls- we will probs have it up all the time.

But, as stated before, our active mitigation is WEAK against things that can't be avoided, and we are VERY weak against unavoidable things that also ignore armor. There's a reason that the Might of Ursoc glyph is pretty popular atm among bears- to help mitigate unavoidable spikes. Most of these spikes, other tanks can simply take with their active mitigation, as EVERYONE (except us) has some way to quickly buff their health with AM so that they can succesfully live through a spike. We, however, HAVE to pop a CD.

Basically, lets say we are going to take a 2 mil hit, and we have 1 mil HP. The 2 mil hit bypasses armor and dodge (There was a large number of abilities like this last tier, and a few this tier). This automatically makes 2/3rds of our active mitigation USELESS, and we have to survive the hit to heal back up with FR (If we survive it, we will pretty much instantly heal up). Thus, we have to pop Barkskin AND Survival Instincts to live through it.

Now, monks, baseline Stagger will ALMOST let them live through it (48% damage staggered). Some extra mastery, or their Guard ability lets them survive it quite easily, no CDs really necessary. (Assuming 1 mil health for monk)
Paladins, with sufficient mastery, can just pop SotR, and bam, they live through it. (Also assuming 1 mil health here). If they want, they also have a barkskin they can use for it.
DKs are in a more tricky spot compared to the other 2. They can attempt to build up a big enough blood shield- also assuming 1 mil health, 200% mastery, they can build up a fairly large blood shield relatively quickly. They can simply pop IBF, and they survive it, other CDs needed.
Now, warriors are basically in the same boat we are for cooldowns, BUT not the same boat for active mitigation. The biggest recorded Shield Barrier that I've seen was a bit over 1 mil- that was after solo soaking malk 10 heroic though, but still. Lets assume that it absorbs an average of 500k for em. So for this big hit, they boost themselves up to 1.5 mil EHP, so they only need a minor CD for it.

Meh, I'm rambling, but the fact of the matter is this- ALL other tanks, except Guardians, have a instaneous way to greatly increase their EHP. Guardians ONLY have cooldowns for this. Thus, fight mechanics that directly hit EHP, bypassing avoidance, tends to be significantly rougher on Guardians then ALL other tanks, which is why blizzard gave us both 20% extra stamina AND 30 sec CD barkskin for 5.4, AND are letting us keep em so far.

So yea. As stated, our Active Mitigation is about as strong/stronger then other tanks for AUTO-ATTACK damage only. Start bringing anything else into the equation, magical damage, unavoidable physical damage, ect, and we fall behind other tanks.

These problems are being solved next expansion, as can be seen, by both A) Significantly buffing our EHP, and B) significantly buffing our CDs.

[exochaft]

Meh, I'm rambling, but the fact of the matter is this- ALL other tanks, except Guardians, have a instaneous way to greatly increase their EHP. Guardians ONLY have cooldowns for this. Thus, fight mechanics that directly hit EHP, bypassing avoidance, tends to be significantly rougher on Guardians then ALL other tanks, which is why blizzard gave us both 20% extra stamina AND 30 sec CD barkskin for 5.4, AND are letting us keep em so far.

Don't think anyone is really disagrees with that, but it makes more of the case that all this EH for Guardians is necessary versus a niche since our active mitigation has many holes in it. Currently, the only times I've died in raids were pretty much intentional wipes and getting literally one-shot, while our other tanks typically die to more than one hit or more frequently. I do credit the amazing natural EH of Guardians, but I think I'd die more often without FR or if my base EH was similar to other tanks.

Rather than saying our niche is EH, perhaps it's more our ability to self-sustain is better than other tanks? When things go to hell, the Guardian perseveres while the other tanks drop! I hesitate to say that without knowing how FR scaling will change in WoD, since more EH to survive non-burst damage is pointless if healers have to do more work to keep us healed overall... plus that niche could scream tank imbalance.

*edit* - Oops, forgot this is the Bear Hug thread. Anyways, with our inflated EH, Bear Hug would end up doing more damage, but that's something easily adjusted later in the design process. A stun doing damage is nothing new, anyways, as there are many in the game currently.