1. #1

    Prot Pali 4 set vs Heroic

    I currently have the 4 set bonus, all normal ilvl, and have been using H gloves off Immersius as my 5th piece. I recently won H shoulder off of Protectors and am wondering if it's worth breaking 4 piece normal in favor of heroic ilvl gear with ideal secondary stats, ie haste and mastery.
    Thanks

  2. #2
    There is a theorycraft blog post about this at sacredduty dot net, the title of the post is "Itemization Value of 4T16".
    I'm not allowed to post links so you'll have to search for it.

    It's best to read the theorycraft blog post and then decide which is best for your specific situation.

    tl;dr
    No, especially not if you use EF.

  3. #3
    I assume you are using EF, then definitely not worth it, unless you are talking about trading multiple flex for multiple heroic (WF), in that case I might give a shot then decide. Like if there is a choice between just one piece of flex tier and heroic non-tier, I'll take tier. Pally T16 bonus is no doubt the strongest among all tanks. My EF does around half of my self heal and I hardly ever use a single holy power on it, unless it's truly emergency or fat-finger... Not to mention dps bonus from WoG glyph.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I assume you are using EF, then definitely not worth it, unless you are talking about trading multiple flex for multiple heroic (WF), in that case I might give a shot then decide. Like if there is a choice between just one piece of flex tier and heroic non-tier, I'll take tier. Pally T16 bonus is no doubt the strongest among all tanks. My EF does around half of my self heal and I hardly ever use a single holy power on it, unless it's truly emergency or fat-finger... Not to mention dps bonus from WoG glyph.
    The post in question proved that even LFR-tier is technically preferable over HC WF gear - and this even correcting for the extra stamina HC WF gear would give you. That said, the 4-set is awfully itemized and lowers the skill cap of playing prot significantly.

    I did not pick it up during progression because the tier tokens were more useful in the hands of DPS players, and I have no intention of picking it up now that progression is over and I can dick around however I want. Seeing as you already have it, however, understand that breaking it would be a downgrade to what you have now.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    The post in question proved that even LFR-tier is technically preferable over HC WF gear - and this even correcting for the extra stamina HC WF gear would give you. That said, the 4-set is awfully itemized and lowers the skill cap of playing prot significantly.

    I did not pick it up during progression because the tier tokens were more useful in the hands of DPS players, and I have no intention of picking it up now that progression is over and I can dick around however I want. Seeing as you already have it, however, understand that breaking it would be a downgrade to what you have now.
    I don't think I understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting it's good or bad?

  6. #6
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I don't think I understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting it's good or bad?
    I'm saying that, personally, I think it promotes bad play, and that it takes away from the experience of playing a paladin. That said, it is, objectively, an upgrade even over HC WF gear.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I'm saying that, personally, I think it promotes bad play, and that it takes away from the experience of playing a paladin. That said, it is, objectively, an upgrade even over HC WF gear.
    I beg to differ. Some tier bonuses just completely change your gameplay for a patch, rather than being a simple boost. It always happens. As far as I can recall, bear t13, brm monk t15, prot pally t16, etc. Also one piece of gear can completely change everything as well, like RoR. Just part of the game. I wouldn't think it promotes bad play. My opinion.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I beg to differ. Some tier bonuses just completely change your gameplay for a patch, rather than being a simple boost. It always happens. As far as I can recall, bear t13, brm monk t15, prot pally t16, etc. Also one piece of gear can completely change everything as well, like RoR. Just part of the game. I wouldn't think it promotes bad play. My opinion.
    The BrM T15 set bonus did the exact opposite of what the paladin T16 bonus does - it raised the skill cap of the spec. Smart use of cancelaura-macros allowed you to get 12% (IIRC) shuffle on-demand for large spikes by purposefully cancelling your EB.

    My issue with the prot paladin T16 bonus is that it completely removes the opportunity cost from the use of EF. Without the tier set, you actually have to think about pressing that button. Do I need damage mitigation now, or is it an optimal time to refresh the HoT/do I badly need the direct heal? With the 4-set, you simply blindly press the button at 5 stacks with no consequences thereof. Sure, it can be manipulated in interesting ways (GWoG and DP for DPS-whoring with constant refreshes), but in terms of making you think about your survival, the T16 4-set is an abomination.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    The BrM T15 set bonus did the exact opposite of what the paladin T16 bonus does - it raised the skill cap of the spec. Smart use of cancelaura-macros allowed you to get 12% (IIRC) shuffle on-demand for large spikes by purposefully cancelling your EB.

    My issue with the prot paladin T16 bonus is that it completely removes the opportunity cost from the use of EF. Without the tier set, you actually have to think about pressing that button. Do I need damage mitigation now, or is it an optimal time to refresh the HoT/do I badly need the direct heal? With the 4-set, you simply blindly press the button at 5 stacks with no consequences thereof. Sure, it can be manipulated in interesting ways (GWoG and DP for DPS-whoring with constant refreshes), but in terms of making you think about your survival, the T16 4-set is an abomination.
    Well, we agree to disagree

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    I'm saying that, personally, I think it promotes bad play, and that it takes away from the experience of playing a paladin. That said, it is, objectively, an upgrade even over HC WF gear.
    It is not really objectively better since every boss fight is different. Tier is not better that non-tier in every aspect. That means it will not always be better in every scenario.

    Simming something on a patchwerk fight with set numbers is not a way to confirm something is objectively better. Which is better totally depends on fight, gear, setup and playstyle.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Muk's Avatar
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    The 4-set is more valuable than the stats you would gain from equipping the heroic shoulders.

  12. #12
    Get off pieces untill you get 4/4 heroic tier. Lfr set > HCWF off pieces is bullshit. You just need to play smarter without 4 set and really... losing 4pc is not the end of the world. In fact, I doubt losing it will not effect your survivability (unless cheesing 4pc with DP which I suppose you don't)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Muk View Post
    The 4-set is more valuable than the stats you would gain from equipping the heroic shoulders.
    Highly depends on what other gear pieces he have and how good he is at playing. 4p's main benefit is to off-set bad HoPo management, other than DP+GoWoG cheesing ofc.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #14
    i got rid of my 4 set awhile ago dont notice a difference, but the 2 piece with vial defiantly pro 2 piece

  15. #15
    I'd consider using heroic warforged off-pieces over heroic tier, but not heroic non-WF. I just like being able to heal myself without having to worry about being able to hit ShoR. Other people don't mind it. I mean, my ShoR reduces by 60%, I'm at the haste cap and have the 4p bonus.
    Last edited by Butler Log; 2014-04-29 at 10:42 AM.
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  16. #16
    Ages ago I did the math on the value of our 4p bonus. Effectively, its worth a flat +10% to your ShoR uptime and a +5% to your dps (from the extra ShoRs). Replicating these effects on TMI and incoming damage takes about 4k Haste + 4k Mastery. The break-even point ends up being pretty close to a full tier level for all 4 pieces. So if you've got full heroic off-tier pieces its a push between going with them vs swapping to normal tier pieces. But its not just because of the extra ilevel. The heroic pieces' greater itemization is part of it, but not 4k Haste + 4k Mastery worth. The off-tier pieces are also better itemized and that provides the rest of the value to even the gap.

    Except, of course, that you *also* get the 2p bonus from the tier, making the decision a no-brainer.

    Edit - As a follow-up point, itemization does matter. We have good stats (Haste and to a lesser degree Mastery) and bad stats (Parry and Dodge). Hit and Exp should be non-issues at this point. As a rule of thumb, each "good" stat you have on your gear is worth half a tier of ilevel even after reforging. So, a 553 Parry/Dodge chest is very roughly equal to a 540 Haste/Mastery chest. But the pieces have different strengths and weaknesses. The poorly itemized, higher-ilevel piece will give you more damage reduction and more Stam. The well itemized, lower-ilevel piece will do a better job of smoothing your incoming damage (despite a slightly smaller health pool) and will help your dps more.
    Last edited by Wrathblood; 2014-04-29 at 12:33 PM.

  17. #17
    The only truly badly itemized piece are the trousers though. On heroic, you get (after upgrading and reforging):

    Helmet: 1660 Haste, 916 Parry, 626 Mastery, 160 Expertise, 270 Stamina
    Shoulders: 1142 Mastery, 1116 Haste, 716 Expertise
    Chest: 1803 Mastery, 1178 Expertise, 944 Haste, 270 Stamina
    Gloves: 2005 Haste, 856 Expertise

    You've got to get your Expertise from somewhere.
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