1. #1
    The Lightbringer Gumboy's Avatar
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    Active Mana regeneration in pvp

    So I'm sure most of you saw the post on the front page about active mana regeneration for healers. Personally, I am quite alarmed at some of them. I have a healing monk, paladin, druid and priest at level 90 right now, and none of the active regeneration tools seem to fit in pvp, in any way shape or form. Mana right now is way to easy to manage (Though some healers have trouble healing the current constant damage against some comps and can go oom) but I do not think this is the solution for it.

    Druids: "Innervate has been redesigned to now have a 2-second cast time with no cooldown, and causes the Druid to gain 2.5% of maximum mana every 4 seconds for 8 seconds. Spending any mana on a healing spell will cancel this effect."

    So basically for druids, it is a cast time drink. You have to get the cast off, then you get two ticks of 2.5% mana. if you heal, it goes away. So basically you are limited to cc and dps (And keep in mind, this is AFTER getting the cast off, so they know you will not be healing-you can either lose your mana regen or heal. Prime time to CC the druid directly after his mana regen, as his hots will be falling off.

    Monk: Crackling Jade Lightning channel duration has been reduced to 4 seconds.
    Stance of the Wise Serpent now also causes Crackling Jade Lightning to cost no mana, and restore 2% of the Monk’s maximum mana if the ability is channeled for its full duration.


    So you have to get a four second cast off of a damage spell that interrupts your healing tree to return 2% mana. This is a nightmare for pvp. On my monk, I actually spend quite a bit of time playing aggressively, casting crackling jade-however I highly doubt it would be anywhere near enough to get enough mana back to matter, in four second in a row increments. Possible solution: Make it interruptable but on a different tree then healing.

    Paladin: Divine Plea has been redesigned to be instant cast with no cooldown, and consume 3 Holy Power to immediately regain 7% of maximum mana.

    By far the "best" of the new ones pvp wise. You use three holy power which is a huge chunk of healing, however it is nowhere near as bad as any of the others in terms of danger, in my opinion.

    Disc Priest: Atonement is no longer triggered by Penance. Penance now also refunds 1.1% of the Priest’s maximum mana each time it deals damage.

    Penance no longer heals, but you have to use it on an enemy, risking a major healing ability to apply dps, in a situation where you need mana, there is probably going to be damage taken as well, so you will no longer be healing in any way, and using a nice healing cd.

    Holy Priest: Chakra: Chastise in addition to existing effects, now also causes Smite and Holy Fire to restore 0.75% of maximum mana each time they are cast instead of costing mana.

    Not quite as bad as some of the others-though I have not seen much smiting going on in 3s, it will be vastly limited to the instant holy fire. You do not need to use any of your healing cd on this ability, like you do for disc priests. You do have to be in damage chakra, but you already do that to disorient so it won't be as big of a deal (Disorient/fear stay in red and dps possible)

    Shaman: Telluric Currents is now a passive ability for Restoration Shaman and causes Lightning Bolt to restore 1.25% of maximum mana each time it is cast instead of costing mana.

    Shaman is the only healer I have not played at 90. However, this ability seems complete and utter trash for pvp. You have to stand still (Remember, Lightning bolt will not be cast while moving in WoD) and do a 2 second cast that if locked out locks you out of healing tree, to do extremely "meh" damage, just to regen any mana.


    100% of these seem to be based on a raid setting where you have other healers to pick up your slack (Kind of like the old five second rule, where you had "rotations" and stuff for when people took them on hard fights)

    in pvp you often do not have another healer to pick up your slack, it is only you, and risking lockout to regen pitiful mana and do pitiful damage does NOT seem to fit pvp in any way.

    Anybody else have an opinion on these active regen models for pvp? I assume I will get some "Good healers need to diaf it should all be dps!" but hopefully there can be good discussion.
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  2. #2
    Epic! Anzen's Avatar
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    Druids and Paladins are way too strong for PvP IMO (compared to the others).

    Druids will obviously use their active regen LoS and just pillar hump to get mana back, sure they may need to heal but it's fairly practical and I could see it working pretty well eventually.

    Paladins is obviously just plain stupid. I think you'll need to be putting out ungodly pressure to OOM a paladin after this, just being able to dump Holy Power into 7% mana is extremely potent.

  3. #3
    there shouldn't be active mana generation in pvp or healers are unkillable 1vs1 and fights last for freaking 10-20minutes!
    Last edited by Zstr; 2014-04-25 at 02:17 PM.

  4. #4
    Epic! Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    there shouldn't be active mana generation in pvp or healers are unkillable 1vs1
    This makes no sense at all.

    Not only do I believe a DPS shouldn't be able to 1v1 a healer on his own anyway, but if you should, I'm not sure how you're saying you can't because they have this active mana regen (read them, I doubt you 'suddenly' wouldn't be able to kill a Resto Shaman because he's now able to restore just over 1% mana from repeatedly casting 2s - 2.5s Lightning Bolts on you

  5. #5
    As far as I know Monks still have Mana Tea in WoD. Paladins seems stupid in comparison to the others. But lets see what each class can do while getting mana back.

    Druid: CC, DPS
    Monk: DPS
    Paladin: Regen Mana
    Priest: DPS

    But there should be a risk on going OOM. Why should some healers only feel pressure after 10 minutes? How about we wait and see what Alpha/Beta has at max level PvP before we start trying to change everything.

    **Not that stupid shit hasn't gone in regardless of OP/UP testing... but still.
    Last edited by Cirayne24; 2014-04-25 at 02:27 PM.
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  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    This makes no sense at all.

    Not only do I believe a DPS shouldn't be able to 1v1 a healer on his own anyway, but if you should, I'm not sure how you're saying you can't because they have this active mana regen (read them, I doubt you 'suddenly' wouldn't be able to kill a Resto Shaman because he's now able to restore just over 1% mana from repeatedly casting 2s - 2.5s Lightning Bolts on you
    1v1, it is entirely possible to down a healer using good and careful usage of CCs and interupts. So in a duel, any dps should be able to down any healer, eventually. It may take 9 minutes, but it IS possible. (Mostly by pressuring them enough to use flash heals, and thus running them oom, to where you can get a kill it. Otherwise, healers would be incredibly powerful in PvP, to the point that teams WITHOUT healers would NEVER be able to down teams WITH healers.
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    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Druids and Paladins are way too strong for PvP IMO (compared to the others).

    Druids will obviously use their active regen LoS and just pillar hump to get mana back, sure they may need to heal but it's fairly practical and I could see it working pretty well eventually.

    Paladins is obviously just plain stupid. I think you'll need to be putting out ungodly pressure to OOM a paladin after this, just being able to dump Holy Power into 7% mana is extremely potent.
    You have to take into consideration there will still be passive mana regen, other mana regenerating abilities such as water shield for Resto Shamans and that different classes have different spell costs.
    Paladin for example may seem too strong now, but when you realize that their spells are also more expensive and that they lack any other real way to regenerate mana aside from spirit, is it still that good?

    Besides, it's only alpha, I highly doubt any of these numbers will make it live.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    You have to take into consideration there will still be passive mana regen, other mana regenerating abilities such as water shield for Resto Shamans and that different classes have different spell costs.
    Paladin for example may seem too strong now, but when you realize that their spells are also more expensive and that they lack any other real way to regenerate mana aside from spirit, is it still that good?

    Besides, it's only alpha, I highly doubt any of these numbers will make it live.
    This. I stack the shit out of spirit on my hpally and have holy power to make half my heals free anyway and I will still oom about the same as other healers against high-pressure comps. On the other hand my druid stacks completely stats to buff healing and never ooms.
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  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Gumboy's Avatar
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    REmember what I said about druids though, they know hots will be dropping at the end of your innervate=perfect time to cc, it is basically cc'ing yourself for the duration, when it comes to healing, and you cant always run in and cc or dps while you are innervating up :P
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  10. #10
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    It seems I was right that they're trying to replicate what they did for Monks with Mana Tea by making active mana regeneration, much like they gave tanks active mitigation.

    Though it might be healthy for a raid environment, it definitely hurts the PvP aspect of things. I really do hope they can compensate with this.

  11. #11
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Druids should be able to get away with innervate while still healing with DoC(I asked on twitter if they could do this, they never confirmed of denied it).

    And for mistweavers Crackling Jade is not our main active mana regen, that would be our mana teas.
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  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Gumboy's Avatar
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    Mana tea will be a lot less often though supposedly in wod, with less chi builders?
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  13. #13
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    Mana tea will be a lot less often though supposedly in wod, with less chi builders?
    Yes, bit I still see mistweavers using mana tea more than crackling jade, which would ge harder to get off in pvp.
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  14. #14
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Yes, bit I still see mistweavers using mana tea more than crackling jade, which would ge harder to get off in pvp.
    I'd assume they'd remove the glyph that makes Mana Tea instant, or reduce the amount of mana it returns. Something along those lines.

  15. #15
    I can see this active regen becoming a disaster in wod. Might work for pve, but bad idea for pvp
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    I'd assume they'd remove the glyph that makes Mana Tea instant, or reduce the amount of mana it returns. Something along those lines.
    nobody uses that glyph anymore

  16. #16
    people seem to be forgetting that a lot of cc is going to be going, there will be a lot of opportunities to get mana back uninterrupted.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    This makes no sense at all.

    Not only do I believe a DPS shouldn't be able to 1v1 a healer on his own anyway, but if you should, I'm not sure how you're saying you can't because they have this active mana regen (read them, I doubt you 'suddenly' wouldn't be able to kill a Resto Shaman because he's now able to restore just over 1% mana from repeatedly casting 2s - 2.5s Lightning Bolts on you
    I never understood this. Why shouldn't a DPS be able to solo a healer? Of course not easily, but it shouldn't be impossible either. When you roll a healer that shouldn't be getting a "Gee, I'm immortal!" card.
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  18. #18
    Epic! Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I never understood this. Why shouldn't a DPS be able to solo a healer? Of course not easily, but it shouldn't be impossible either. When you roll a healer that shouldn't be getting a "Gee, I'm immortal!" card.
    While I suppose this is more philosophy of the game, it is my opinion that a DPS should never really be able to solo a healer. Reason being that this would technically make healers redundant in all brackets.

    I know healers get a lot of hate (particularly from DPS on these forums), but you must remember that whilst you can't kill him, he also can't kill you and once again, that is balance in my mind. Healers aren't immortal, they just aren't soloable (as I believe it should be).

    On that note, I can't see it being very fun to play a healer if a single player could solo you.

  19. #19
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
    I can see this active regen becoming a disaster in wod. Might work for pve, but bad idea for pvpnobody uses that glyph anymore
    Seems so, I haven't played my Mistweaver since 5.1. Definitely a system that fits PvE a lot more than PvP. Let's hope they have some sort of alternative (or player damage isn't too much of a problem, so mana isn't spent as fast).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    While I suppose this is more philosophy of the game, it is my opinion that a DPS should never really be able to solo a healer. Reason being that this would technically make healers redundant in all brackets.

    I know healers get a lot of hate (particularly from DPS on these forums), but you must remember that whilst you can't kill him, he also can't kill you and once again, that is balance in my mind. Healers aren't immortal, they just aren't soloable (as I believe it should be).

    On that note, I can't see it being very fun to play a healer if a single player could solo you.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. There was a point in late-Cataclysm/early-Mists that healers were able to be solo'd which was annoying.

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    While I suppose this is more philosophy of the game, it is my opinion that a DPS should never really be able to solo a healer. Reason being that this would technically make healers redundant in all brackets.

    I know healers get a lot of hate (particularly from DPS on these forums), but you must remember that whilst you can't kill him, he also can't kill you and once again, that is balance in my mind. Healers aren't immortal, they just aren't soloable (as I believe it should be).

    On that note, I can't see it being very fun to play a healer if a single player could solo you.
    I've killed quite a few DPS as a 562 MW lol.

    Im ok with the Hpaly change - but i seriously hope they dont go live with the others. and i also hope they dont gut mana tea
    Last edited by Avada Kedavra; 2014-04-28 at 10:58 PM.
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