1. #1

    Help our Arms Warrior!

    Hey Warrior community, we're currently progressing on Heroic 10 Garrosh and it feels to me like our Arms Warrior isn't really pulling the numbers he should be doing at our current gear levels. We have got quite unlucky with weapons dropping, he will be going fury when we get another one drop; so I have that in mind but any tips/criticisms I could bring to his attention would be very helpful!

    Here are some logs from the past few nights:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VcFZDaJWkmhKPt3f
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CgQ17aBp3m8jkWNy
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3DATZbfYy4HqmLdJ

    Thanks again guys, Cheers!

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    At a quick glance; less Slam spam and more OP+HS during Colossus Smashes.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Longtime Warrior forum lurker, first time posting here.

    Hi Lorthem,

    I had a look at the first set of logs you linked (specifically Wipe 18 - Duration 11:07).

    I've spent a bit of time going through the first phase of the fight and there are quite a few things I picked up on that if fixed should help Isaî improve his/her performance on the fight by some margin. As I was looking through the fight I copied/pasted things into Notepad as I was going along and it's pretty lengthy so instead of posting it here there is a link to the text file I made on Dropbox. I'll PM you the link (and anyone else who is interested) - as this is my first post on MMO Champ I seem to be barred from including links in this post and the text file is way too long to include here.

    The TLDR (although I put a fair bit of time into the text file so please read it :P) is:

    • Poor use of cooldowns at the start of the fight (they were used to boost AoE damage on the adds and only had a very small effect on boss damage).
    • Utilising the Colossus Smash windows poorly (should be trying to fit far more Slams into CS than what I can currently see) - seems to be combined with generally poor rage management (haven't had the time to look at rage levels through the phase in detail yet though). Also there was one occasion where Thunderclap was used as the first ability after hitting CS.
    • Mortal Strike isn't being used on CD.
    • Towards the end of the phase a CS was used on one of the adds - since Warrior damage is completely dependant on what you can fit into the 6 second window CS gives this would have had a big impact on the damage done to the boss.

    Just generally looking at the order in which abilities are being used I get the feeling that Isaî isn't 100% comfortable playing the spec and is hitting buttons when they happen to be available (Arms is a very spammy playstyle though). If he/she was to take time out to properly absorb "all" the info on the Icy Veins guide for Arms then pretty much everything I brought up in the text file that I PM'd you would be a non issue.

    Having said that I only really looked in a lot of detail at one phase of one attempt so it could simply be that I picked a bad one to look at (not every try is going to be perfect after all) - feel free to PM me if you have any questions, would be happy to talk about the logs on Skype/TeamSpeak in more detail if you'd like. A lot of the detail in the text file is gobbledygook is you aren't familiar with playing a DPS warrior.

    Edit: The Arms guide at the top of this forum is also a useful resource.

    Edit: Can't send PM's either since I haven't posted 10 times on the forums -.-.
    Last edited by Garrow; 2014-04-28 at 09:05 AM.

  5. #5
    Will post a copy of the logs I looked at anyway, be warned it's a wall of text.

    Would also be useful if anyone would mind double checking my analysis, been a while since I've played arms so I could be wrong.

    03:15:38.440 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream 91793

    -- Generally you want to pool rage before any Colossus Smash window and this is especially important
    at the start of the fight for the opening rotation. I can't see Battle Shout (20 Rage) being used
    although I'm unsure if Battle shout before combat starts shows up in WCL parses. Before the pull
    Isaî will want to be using Shattering Throw - something else which I currently can't see either.

    Instead of going straight into a Colossus Smash window the GCD before it should be filled with a
    Dragons Roar but as this is not available Isaî would used Heroic Throw instead. This would result
    in the opening rotation looking like.

    Mortal Strike --> Heroic Throw --> Colossus Smash

    While the damage from Dragons Roar (and especially Heroic Throw) is nothing to write home about
    it's important to gain as much rage as possible before going into the first CS window and use of
    a GCD between MS and CS means that an extra white hit will land between CS and whatever ability
    is used afterwards (in the case of this log Execute).

    Either way these are small details and won't add up to make a huge difference in the grand scheme
    of things but they "do" make a difference and when you add up lots of small details you get a big
    effect - this is particularly important for any raider at a high level (especially considering
    you guys are currently working on Garrosh HC).

    03:15:38.844 Isaî gains Cruelty from Isaî
    03:15:38.844 Isaî gains Outrage from Isaî

    -- Both trinkets procced from the first MS (lucky sod).


    03:15:40.042 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream *176457*
    03:15:41.657 Isaî Execute Garrosh Hellscream *900206*
    03:15:42.865 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 280463
    03:15:44.477 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream 207986
    03:15:46.095 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *512434*

    -- Nothing out the ordinary to note here, good use of an execute proc.


    03:15:46.557 Isaî gains Recklessness from Isaî
    03:15:46.557 Isaî gains Bloodbath from Isaî

    -- This is the first thing that is a bit off, with the opening MS both trinkets have procced plus
    Death Sentence has procced a use of Execute yet the use of both major dps cooldowns has been
    delayed until after the first CS window is over? Considering that the priority for the Garrosh HC
    fight is to do the maximum amount of single target damage to the boss the use of cooldowns here is
    very dubious.


    03:15:47.700 Isaî Execute Garrosh Hellscream *674064*

    -- Another Execute proc, sweet! Since Sudden Death has procced and the cooldown of CS reset I'd prefer
    to see this execute used within a CS window but since the adds are about to be engaged by the raid
    I can understand why it's been used here - not a big issue.


    03:15:48.840 Isaî's Cruelty fades from Isaî
    03:15:48.840 Isaî's Outrage fades from Isaî

    -- Both trinket procs have expired by now - losing any chance to stack them in any meaningful way with
    Reck and Bloodbath.


    03:15:48.932 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream *229720*
    03:15:50.031 Isaî gains Sweeping Strikes from Isaî
    03:15:50.571 Isaî Thunder Clap Garrosh Hellscream 88514
    03:15:52.147 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream 133628
    03:15:53.005 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream 141818
    03:15:54.132 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream 126951
    03:15:54.956 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream *303364*
    03:15:56.141 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream *246223*
    03:15:56.951 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream *218352*
    03:15:58.140 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream *192386*

    -- For me this is the first big no no. Using Thunderclap as the first GCD inside a CS window is really
    inefficient as it gains absolutely nothing from the Armour Pen of CS (it's primary use is to spread
    Deep Wounds to everything it hits).

    Also Bladestorm has been used here to fill this CS window. This is again incredibly inefficient and
    a major loss of single target dps.

    In this case it would have been best to simply ignore using CS. Apply Deep Wounds to the adds with
    Thunderclap, pop Sweeping Strikes then go full ham with Bladestorm. This would allow Isaî to use
    CS --> Sweeping Strikes --> Slam Spam after the Bladestorm is over - this is a significant increase
    in damage to both Garrosh and the adds.


    03:15:58.581 Isaî's Recklessess fades from Isaî
    03:15:58.581 Isaî's Bloodbath fades from Isaî

    -- Both Reck and Bloodbath have faded, havent been stacked with trinket procs well and have only really
    helped AoE dps on the adds and haven't anything really to help with damage on Garrosh.


    03:15:58.967 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *238608*
    03:16:00.040 Isaî's Sweeping Strikes is refreshed by Isaî
    03:16:00.580 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *113299*
    03:16:01.365 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *110630*
    03:16:02.957 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 149904

    -- By using CS with Bladestorm above the dps for this window has been lowered massively, there is also
    little point to using Sweeping Strikes then only hitting Slam once in the ten second window that SS
    is up - SS is next applied 33 seconds later.


    Going to go slightly off on a tangent here.

    You want to be hitting Mortal Strike every time it comes off cooldown. It normally has a cooldown of
    6 seconds, this means that between Mortal Strikes you normally have room for 3 GCD's which would look
    like:

    MS --> GCD --> GCD --> GCD --> MS

    However Overpower reduces the cooldown on MS by 0.5 secs with each use of OP, providing there are
    three stacks of Taste for Blood this lets us:

    MS --> OP --> OP --> OP -- MS (4.5 second cooldown instead of the usual 6)

    However the rotation used here is:

    MS --> OP --> OP --> Slam --> MS

    Without giving you even more spam to read this is effectively delaying Mortal Strike by 0.5 seconds -
    not a great deal on its own but this will add up over the course of an entire fight. Being able to use
    Mortal Strike more means more rage, and more chances for Mortal Strike to crit and give you enrage.

    Also using MS --> OP --> OP --> OP --> MS when appropriate crams more GCD's into the rotation and more
    GCD's will mean more procs from Arms's Strikes of Opportunity and by extension Sudden Death (reset of
    Colossus Smash).


    03:16:04.581 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *203707*
    03:16:06.175 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *103775*
    03:16:06.973 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *114521*

    -- Sudden Death proc means you can interrupt what you are doing and go into a CS window.


    03:16:08.983 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream *199575*
    03:16:10.576 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *363988*
    03:16:12.194 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 211496

    -- Loss of DPS to overwrite a CS so soon.

    03:16:13.395 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream *258366*
    03:16:15.051 Isaî Heroic Strike Garrosh Hellscream *146447*
    03:16:15.051 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *422910*
    03:16:16.629 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream 158651
    03:16:17.007 Isaî Heroic Strike Garrosh Hellscream 90322
    03:16:18.224 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *510671*
    03:16:19.453 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *148856*
    03:16:19.724 Isaî gains Sweeping Strikes from Isaî

    -- This CS phase is a bit of a mess, although I can't read Isaî's current amount of Rage is at any given
    time from the logs (I'm not 100% familiar with WCL yet) it's safe to say that the use of 2 Heroic
    Strike here has left Isaî close to being raged starved since he has been unable to fit MS x1 and Slam
    x3 into the window and has reverted to using OP instead.

    03:16:20.640 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *97929*
    03:16:21.481 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *82810*
    03:16:21.629 Mortal Strike CD (See below)
    03:16:22.644 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *93040*

    -- Since the last MS Slam has been used once and OP four times, this means that MS would have come off CD
    around 03:16:21.629 but the next use of MS is at 03:16:25.098 which is over 3.5 seconds later. Again,
    inefficient use of MS.

    03:16:23.440 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream *152056*
    03:16:25.098 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *288360*
    03:16:26.679 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *432182*
    03:16:28.262 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *156345*
    03:16:29.076 Isaî Overpower Garrosh Hellscream *140645*

    -- Should really be trying to pool rage better and fill CS windows with more Slams.


    03:16:30.276 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *339572*
    03:16:31.493 Isaî Execute Garrosh Hellscream *371649*
    03:16:33.164 Isaî Execute Garrosh Hellscream 185825
    --- Thunderclap Suggestion ---
    03:16:33.193 Isaî gains Sweeping Strikes from Isaî
    03:16:34.736 Isaî Bladestorm Garrosh Hellscream 108992

    -- This part of the fight Garrosh is going to be in your Execute range, it's a loss of dps to be using
    Execute outside of CS. Save rage and:

    CS --> Execute --> Execute --> Execute --> Execute

    Otherwise Sweeping Strikes + Bladestorm is fine, like the first pack of adds in the fight it would be
    best to use Thunderclap before SS + BS so that Deep Wounds is applied to them. Thunderclap could have
    been used where I placed "Thunderclap Suggestion", this would have allowed for Deep Wounds to tick for
    around 10 seconds longer on the adds compared to when it was used later (see below).


    03:16:41.177 Isaî Overpower Kor'kron Warbringer 9 *99847*
    03:16:42.354 Isaî Thunder Clap Garrosh Hellscream 70614
    03:16:43.425 Isaî gains Sweeping Strikes from Isaî
    03:16:45.203 Isaî Mortal Strike Kor'kron Warbringer 9 87800
    03:16:46.778 Isaî Colossus Smash Kor'kron Warbringer 9 *164830*
    03:16:50.000 Garrosh heals to 100% (out of execute range).
    03:16:50.795 Isaî Overpower Kor'kron Warbringer 8 *87471*

    -- After Bladestorm has ended a series of single target abilities (OP, MS, CS, OP) seemed to have been used
    on a single Warbringer add (including a CS which is a total waste to not be using on Garrosh). Not moving
    with Garrosh as he transitions?


    03:16:53.612 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *164666*

    -- 8 seconds since the last Mortal Strike, again inconsistent use of MS.


    03:16:55.191 Isaî Colossus Smash Garrosh Hellscream 75317
    03:16:56.810 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *423244*
    03:16:58.429 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *410400*
    03:16:59.633 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream *291824*
    03:17:01.227 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream *409417*

    03:17:02.878 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 139726
    03:17:04.460 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 128214
    03:17:05.658 Isaî Mortal Strike Garrosh Hellscream 98465
    03:17:07.262 Isaî Slam Garrosh Hellscream 115164

    -- Nothing to really add here at the end of the phase

    --- First Transition ---
    Last edited by Garrow; 2014-04-29 at 03:13 PM.

  6. #6
    Noob warrior here...but above said u want to use shattering throw before pull...can I ask y? Prob a dumb question but trying to learn

  7. #7
    Not a dumb question at all.

    Shattering Throw
    Throws your weapon at the enemy causing 12
    (+ 50% of Attack power) damage, reducing the
    armor on the target by 20% for 10 sec or
    removing any invulnerabilities.

    Shattering throw will reduce the armor of the boss by 20%. Unlike colossus smash which only gives 100% armor penetration for your own attacks the -20% from shattering throw will benefit all of the physical dps you have in your raid. Since your opening rotation/burst will have colossus smash up within 2-3 global cooldowns the warrior using shattering throw doesn't really gain a whole lot from it but since it benefits the rest of your raid why not use it?

  8. #8
    @ChristopherD87 If you prepot at 2 and start casting Shattering you will give all the physical DPS a hefty dps boost on their openers, and all you lose is 1.5seconds of potion uptime.

    @Garrow Lovely to see a new face here, especially one that is willing to go into these lengths to help out others!

    As Arms you want to make sure that you're able to use as many of your CS procs as possible, meaning that you want to use it as fast as possible. On the pull this means that it's best to use it as your second global, even if your trinkets haven't proced yet. When the adds come in you can do one of two things. If you know the adds will live for the duration of your Bladestorm, use TC first to get some more damage on to them and then Bladestorm. If they will die from the bladestorm alone, then skip the TC. Regarding the CS before AoE; Unlike Fury, Bladestorm is actually the best attack we can use during our CS, and as we also want to make sure that we get to use as many of the CS procs it's a good thing he used it prio to him bladestorming (Especially as all the mastery procs from your BS has an almost guarantied chance to proc a new CS while you're spinning).

    You're right about the CDs tho. You either use them on your opener if you need more damage on Garrosh, or you use it for the AoE. No need to use it half an half and lose the main benefit from either of those choices. Tip: Always use Bloodbath on the opener. The first set of adds will be dead before you've managed to gain any great benefit from the DoT that is applied to them.
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  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Exhil's Avatar
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    Random question that I'm surprised I haven't asked before. Does Shattering Throw stack with other Shattering Throws? And if it does, is it additive or multiplicative?

    I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it doesn't stack, but having more warriors than usual in our setup at the moment while trialling new people.
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  10. #10
    Thanks for the non elitist friendly answers for (like I said a noob warrior lol)

  11. #11
    Shattering Throw dose not stack.

    If you have one warrior, it's most likely gonna be best for him to use it pre-pull (as I explained above).
    If you have two warriors have Warrior #1 do it pre-pull, and the second warrior either use it as soon as the first one expires, or he saves it for 3mins and use it when the hunters in the raid use their stampede for the second time.
    If you have three warriors Warrior #1 do it pre-pull, #2 use it when the first one expires and warrior #3 use it for the hunters second stampede.
    Four warriors same as above + #4 use it after #3's has expired.
    If you have any more warriors than that you are really running out of places where it would be an increase to use it at all. If you do have 5+ warriors, let it be the Fury warrior who doesn't use his Shatter, as Fury warriors can use it as a personal damage increase in certain situations where as Prot and Arms don't have it in their optimal single target rotation.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    As Arms you want to make sure that you're able to use as many of your CS procs as possible, meaning that you want to use it as fast as possible.
    Worth noting that you probably don't want to burn a CS proc while CS is still rolling, unless things have changed since I last played arms.

  13. #13
    Thank you all for the wonderful insight, I'll be sure to relay these tips to him! Thank you all again, much appreciated!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    @ChristopherD87 If you prepot at 2 and start casting Shattering you will give all the physical DPS a hefty dps boost on their openers, and all you lose is 1.5seconds of potion uptime.

    @Garrow Lovely to see a new face here, especially one that is willing to go into these lengths to help out others!

    As Arms you want to make sure that you're able to use as many of your CS procs as possible, meaning that you want to use it as fast as possible. On the pull this means that it's best to use it as your second global, even if your trinkets haven't proced yet. When the adds come in you can do one of two things. If you know the adds will live for the duration of your Bladestorm, use TC first to get some more damage on to them and then Bladestorm. If they will die from the bladestorm alone, then skip the TC. Regarding the CS before AoE; Unlike Fury, Bladestorm is actually the best attack we can use during our CS, and as we also want to make sure that we get to use as many of the CS procs it's a good thing he used it prio to him bladestorming (Especially as all the mastery procs from your BS has an almost guarantied chance to proc a new CS while you're spinning).

    You're right about the CDs tho. You either use them on your opener if you need more damage on Garrosh, or you use it for the AoE. No need to use it half an half and lose the main benefit from either of those choices. Tip: Always use Bloodbath on the opener. The first set of adds will be dead before you've managed to gain any great benefit from the DoT that is applied to them.
    I haven't played Arms in PvE for a while now, but what about Sweeping Strikes before Bladestorm? Does SS affect BS, since afaik BS isn't a true aoe but rather an ability that does one attack every second to each target?

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbar View Post
    I haven't played Arms in PvE for a while now, but what about Sweeping Strikes before Bladestorm? Does SS affect BS, since afaik BS isn't a true aoe but rather an ability that does one attack every second to each target?
    Yes, but it only copies 1 tick of bladestorm per second.

  16. #16
    Correct me if I'm wrong but sweeping strikes hit 1 additional target per tick of blade storm
    blade storm hits 6 targets. 1 target gets hit twice.

  17. #17
    SS can and should be used for any sort of cleave/AoE. SS can proc from the Bladestorm hits on the target you are targeting.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post

    Garrow Lovely to see a new face here, especially one that is willing to go into these lengths to help out others!

    Cheers I've benefited a lot from this forum so it's nice to give a little back. I go over my logs quite a lot so I'm more than willing to do the same thing for others since it doesn't take a whole lot of time, not sure the "Fix my DPS" thread would appreciate multiple walls of text though .

  19. #19
    I'm 577 ilvl warrior and I play fury mainly because of the huge single target dps over arms, but the arms rotation for me literally feels like this:
    Keep MS on CD
    Use CS on CD
    Spam Slam/MS into CS's
    HS when possible into CS's with extra rage (Don't do this often as arms because another slam > HS (unless you won't fit the slam into CS))
    OP to reduce MS outside of CS
    Execute phase is just replacing Slam with Execute.

    Overall, arms played even at its' peak isn't going to be anywhere close to topping single target dps on a boss.

    edit: You'll want to run Bloodbath + BS too. CS + BB + BS is a single target increase too.

    My BS macro is something like this:
    /cast Sweeping Strikes
    /cast Blood bath
    /cast Bladestorm
    /cancelaura Bladestorm
    Last edited by b1ghead3d; 2014-05-05 at 03:28 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by b1ghead3d View Post
    I'm 577 ilvl warrior and I play fury mainly because of the huge single target dps over arms, but the arms rotation for me literally feels like this:
    Keep MS on CD
    Use CS on CD
    Spam Slam/MS into CS's
    HS when possible into CS's with extra rage (Don't do this often as arms because another slam > HS (unless you won't fit the slam into CS))
    OP to reduce MS outside of CS
    Execute phase is just replacing Slam with Execute.

    Overall, arms played even at its' peak isn't going to be anywhere close to topping single target dps on a boss.

    edit: You'll want to run Bloodbath + BS too. CS + BB + BS is a single target increase too.

    My BS macro is something like this:
    /cast Sweeping Strikes
    /cast Blood bath
    /cast Bladestorm
    /cancelaura Bladestorm
    OP+HS > Slam when Reck isn't up iirc. Unnecessary necro though.

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