Star Wars Expanded Universe (including games) no longer canon

[elmoe420]

The thread probably should have started with an explanation of how canon is defined in the Star Wars universe both before and after the Disney announcement. There is a good explanation of all of this that is summarized here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

The really important part to understand is this:

"S-canon is Secondary canon: covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other. The non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes all C-canon material released prior to April 25, 2014, video games such as the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies, and certain elements of a few N-canon stories."

This topic has been brought up and discussed for literally decades in other forums. I personally don't see any other way that this could have been handled given just how far post-RotJ the EU had already extended the timeline. The other option was basically to set the sequels so far in the future that any continuity with the previous films would be almost completely lost. Remember, the vast bulk of their audience is only familiar with the films and hence that is where the new stories will be expected to bridge from.

[Frontenac]

The thread probably should have started with an explanation of how canon is defined in the Star Wars universe both before and after the Disney announcement. There is a good explanation of all of this that is summarized here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

The really important part to understand is this:

"S-canon is Secondary canon: covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other. The non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes all C-canon material released prior to April 25, 2014, video games such as the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies, and certain elements of a few N-canon stories."

So the S-Canon is a synonym for "Legends". KotOR really happened in the continuity unless G, T or C-Canon says otherwise. Not much of a "canon". At this level of reliability, I prefer my stance of "It may have happened, or it may have not, but I enjoy it anyway."

[rhorle]

Black Sun was born in Legends, now it's canon, though it's not exactly the same Black Sun.

If its not the same, then it can't be from the EU. That is what some of us are trying to tell you that you keep ignoring. Just because they use the name or make it similar doesn't mean they are taking it from the EU because the story is different. Like I said what if they make Thrawn a sniveling poor commander that isn't even chiss? It was born from the EU but not exactly the same. Is that okay?

The fact that they picked only some for movie continuity should be a red flag. Because the stories are all connected in some fashion or another. All of what they didn't pick does mean that it hasn't happened in the movie continuity because they haven't added it to that universe yet. It hasn't happened until they say it has it is that simple. If it isn't used as a source of what should or should not happen then it isn't part of the continuity, it is that simple.

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Being confused while reading a book is less annoying than while viewing a movie in theater. You can stop reading, get informations and understand that the book you are reading is now part of "Legends". You then choose to keep on reading or not. In the movie theater, you can't stop the movie to get infos. The film keeps rolling, and it's pretty annoying. "Hey, where's Chewbacca? What's a Yuuzan Vong? Wait, Luke got married?"

You also won't sell books, or other IP, if it makes no sense to what is currently generating buzz for your product. There are also ways of properly introducing a story line that has advanced several years then just rolling opening credits and having chewbacca killed off and the vong showing up. You act like a movie can't ever continue a story that was created outside of a movie.

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So the S-Canon is a synonym for "Legends". KotOR really happened in the continuity unless G, T or C-Canon says otherwise. Not much of a "canon". At this level of reliability, I prefer my stance of "It may have happened, or it may have not, but I enjoy it anyway."

It isn't synonym for "legends". Because not all S-cannon will be part of "Legends". However anything in S-cannon will be "false" if the writers of C-cannon want to say otherwise. They could make Corran Horn a bothan if they wanted to because they have stated new material will be C-cannon. Most S-cannon will be previously existing content but they could literally just re-brand anything S-cannon just to tell what ever story they want.

[Frontenac]

If its not the same, then it can't be from the EU. That is what some of us are trying to tell you that you keep ignoring. Just because they use the name or make it similar doesn't mean they are taking it from the EU because the story is different. Like I said what if they make Thrawn a sniveling poor commander that isn't even chiss? It was born from the EU but not exactly the same. Is that okay?

The fact that they picked only some for movie continuity should be a red flag. Because the stories are all connected in some fashion or another. All of what they didn't pick does mean that it hasn't happened in the movie continuity because they haven't added it to that universe yet. It hasn't happened until they say it has it is that simple. If it isn't used as a source of what should or should not happen then it isn't part of the continuity, it is that simple.

And I believe that your being dogmatic. In Clone Wars, Black Sun is still a galaxy-spanning crime syndicate. The only difference is that it is lead by the Falleen. That's not exactly the case in Shadow of the Empire. Yes, they modified the concept a little, but they still took it from the EU.

If they took Thrawn and devoided the character of all the things that define Thrawn, then it would be a different character altogether with the same name. But if they took Thrawn, a chiss Grand Admiral of the Empire and a brilliant strategist that uses the culture and art forms of his enemies to device its strategies, then it would be the same character even if his role in the story is changed. And the EU would be the source of the character.

The ancient Greeks had less problems with their contradicting myths than Star Wars fans. Heracles remains Heracles even if some stories differ.

But you're right : the changes that are made with the sequels are/will be so great that almost all the EU that happens between RotJ and TFA will be contradicted. Simply because if you remove A, then B can't happen and therefore C and D can't happen either, etc.

[Mormolyce]

I hated the entire Vong series. Made me quit reading the EU. If I remember right, Vector Prime was awful, some of the later books written by the better EU writers were higher quality, but the overall storyline and the Vong in general were just a terrible idea. Bad guys an angsty teen would think are cool.

From the sound of it it picked up again after that, sometimes I've considered reading it again to see the whole Solo kids' storyline play out at least.

Being confused while reading a book is less annoying than while viewing a movie in theater. You can stop reading, get informations and understand that the book you are reading is now part of "Legends". You then choose to keep on reading or not. In the movie theater, you can't stop the movie to get infos. The film keeps rolling, and it's pretty annoying. "Hey, where's Chewbacca? What's a Yuuzan Vong? Wait, Luke got married?"

Imagine how long the title crawl would be.

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The ancient Greeks had less problems with their contradicting myths than Star Wars fans. Heracles remains Heracles even if some stories differ.

"She's his sister-wife, not his aunt-cousin! HOW COULD A BRONZE REFLECTION KILL A GORGON!? OMG this Homer guy is a hack!"

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So the S-Canon is a synonym for "Legends". KotOR really happened in the continuity unless G, T or C-Canon says otherwise. Not much of a "canon". At this level of reliability, I prefer my stance of "It may have happened, or it may have not, but I enjoy it anyway."

Kotor is C-canon.

G: George Lucas: the original films, apparently the Clone Wars film, plus any statements he makes as the author - except the ones you should ignore because he's nuts

C: Continuity canon: basically the entire EU, books, TV shows, comics and also games.

S: Secondary canon: nonsense or silly shit that's been overridden, RPG stuff, etc.

Also there's now T-canon because Clone Wars is supposedly slightly higher canon than the other C-canon stuff due to Lucas' involvement.

Star Wars lore nuts are trying to reclassify this all with the new films - also a press release re-labelled everything below G/T canon "Legends". But in reality, it's an entirely new canon that will only play as close to the earlier material as they like.

People take the SW canon levels way too seriously. Consider the fact that even G-canon is self-contradictory. Leia remembers her mother from when she was young but Padme died in childbirth (I'm sure someone's come up with fanwank to explain that away, but let's face it, Lucas forgot).

[Darththeo]

You make a movie. You have the choice of caring about the expectations of some die hard fans who read all about the movie (and would probably be pissed off and nitpick anyway as they always do), or about the viewing experience of the vast majority who have not read the books. What choice do you make?

Being confused while reading a book is less annoying than while viewing a movie in theater. You can stop reading, get informations and understand that the book you are reading is now part of "Legends". You then choose to keep on reading or not. In the movie theater, you can't stop the movie to get infos. The film keeps rolling, and it's pretty annoying. "Hey, where's Chewbacca? What's a Yuuzan Vong? Wait, Luke got married?"

Opinion, not fact.

[Bigbazz]

You're getting emotionally invested in storyline that was never part of the original universe. When making new movies they won't want to have to be locked down by masses of additional story branding off from the original series. As far as most people are concerned and as far as the movies are concerned the only thing that is canon are the movies.

That doesn't take away from the books, they were still good stories.. But why you thought that it was canon and that it was gonna hold true in future movies I don't know. Personally I never believed we would see new movies, but I'm damn glad we are.

[Wilian]

EU still exists; those stories still happened, in it's OWN universe. The EU canon was separated from the films, that's all.

It always was separate.

[Darththeo]

It always was separate.

No, it was a separate level of the same canon. Now it is completely divorced from canon.

[Wilian]

No, it was a separate level of the same canon. Now it is completely divorced from canon.

No, it was always separate and there are quotes of GL saying this at least up to 2008. It might've been dubbed "A" canon or "B" canon but that's just semantics because EU in the end had no connection to real Star Wars canon.

[rhorle]

That doesn't take away from the books, they were still good stories.. But why you thought that it was canon and that it was gonna hold true in future movies I don't know. Personally I never believed we would see new movies, but I'm damn glad we are.

The movies are only half of it though. Because they have stated that if something contradicts something that already exists the post-Disney work will be Cannon. Even new books and other non-movie works can re-write the story of star wars. Disney, and the "new" Lucas Arts basically stated that it is to much work to work with in the confines of the existing universe so we are creating are own Cannon so whatever we say is the actual truth.

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No, it was always separate and there are quotes of GL saying this at least up to 2008. It might've been dubbed "A" canon or "B" canon but that's just semantics because EU in the end had no connection to real Star Wars canon.

They were and they weren't. George didn't factor in the EU whenever he decided to do something himself but the EU was still tightly controlled and even influence the movies. There is a quote of George saying that he didn't know why Anakin had a scar and that its source came from the EU. It was included because the head of the "Lore" said to include it. George Lucas also approved of Chewie dying and it wouldn't have happened as "cannon" with out his approval.

[Jotaux]

Being the head of star wars lore for the movies would be an awesome job.

[rhorle]

None the less George has explicitly said that nothing that occurs in the EU is part of HIS canon. He's fine with its existence, but clarified that it's a separate universe all together from his own.

And yet he was fine with a scar appearing in his cannon for the sole reason that it happened in the EU. His statements are all over the spectrum in regards to the EU and I know from reading interviews and discussions with EU authors that Lucas Arts had a strong control over the direction that the EU authors went. George might not have taken the EU into account when creating his storyline or cared if he contradicted the EU but he still made use of it and still ensured it was kept to certain guidelines.

The editors originally wanted to kill off Luke Skywalker and gave a list to Lucas Arts of who they would like permission to kill. Chewbacca wasn't on the list of "can't kill" so they picked him to kill off. While george might not have had direct say over that I am pretty sure he either was included on the discussion or it was authorized by the head of the story department of LA. The same one who included EU elements in the prequels.

[Wilian]

And yet he was fine with a scar appearing in his cannon for the sole reason that it happened in the EU. His statements are all over the spectrum in regards to the EU and I know from reading interviews and discussions with EU authors that Lucas Arts had a strong control over the direction that the EU authors went. George might not have taken the EU into account when creating his storyline or cared if he contradicted the EU but he still made use of it and still ensured it was kept to certain guidelines.

The editors originally wanted to kill off Luke Skywalker and gave a list to Lucas Arts of who they would like permission to kill. Chewbacca wasn't on the list of "can't kill" so they picked him to kill off. While george might not have had direct say over that I am pretty sure he either was included on the discussion or it was authorized by the head of the story department of LA. The same one who included EU elements in the prequels.

You seem to mix two separate things at nilly will. Of course LA was going to have iron fist over EU material, it's their IP and anything accossiated with it would in some way reflect to LA and George Lucas. That's just sensible thing to do. It has nothing to do with canonity of things which was often and explicitly stated to be separate from the EU.

And just because there was -some- overlaps, it was just that. Oddity, maybe an idea GL thought was neat and wanted to incorporate. That doesn't mean the canons are connected in any way. It just means GL liked that specific thing and wanted to add it in.

[draganid]

so if eu isnt canon what's up with the revan mask in the latest trailer? that cant be an accident or coincidence imo. especially considering swtor's current expansion is focused around revan.

[Wilian]

so if eu isnt canon what's up with the revan mask in the latest trailer? that cant be an accident or coincidence imo. especially considering swtor's current expansion is focused around revan.

It's not Revan mask so I have no idea what you are on about.

[draganid]

It's not Revan mask so I have no idea what you are on about.

the mask the bad guy has on totally looks like revan's mask

[Wilian]

the mask the bad guy has on totally looks like revan's mask

You might want to have your eyes checked then.

A lot of people in Star Wars wears masks.

[Darththeo]

the mask the bad guy has on totally looks like revan's mask

You are aware that Revan's Mask was just a mask of a Mandalorian and there are a lot of those in both Canon and Legends?