550 ilvl still not enough for N Garrosh? *rant*

[Saphyron]

Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).

There is a difference between average raiders and some of the best raiders in the world in best in slot gear averaging around 578 ilvl

Get real matey.

[Deleted]

Have you heard of people killing Gary 5 man on normal?

How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle?

So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).

How many videos can you find of 5 man gary ? 1 ?
Do they happen to have farmed 25man bis geared and be among the best players in the world ?
How can you even compare the best players in the world, to a random group that often lacks basics tools such a voice communication ?

People can fail cause ilvl does not equal skill and majority of your average flex/normal raider isn't very skilled, higher ilvl will insure a higher ceiling of dps, regardless of what that roof is, in a vaccum where skill does not exist, more ilvl equals more dps. Its really that simple.

You also seem to live in some sort of bubble where wipes doesn't happen, top world guilds spends hundreds of wipes per boss during progression, are they also just bad ?

[Deleted]

There is a difference between average raiders and some of the best raiders in the world in best in slot gear averaging around 578 ilvl

Get real matey.

And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.

[Tradu]

Have you heard of people killing Gary 5-man on normal(10man)?

How can 25 people, way above the iLvl threshold fail on normal mode and struggle? And how can that be "alright"?

So you tell me, why people fails? I blame the raidleader(because of the silly approach).

We've said this MANY times. The 5man kill was by some of the best players in the world, WAY overgearing the encounter(especially with how scaling is at the moment, that's an enormous difference). And I'm not sure why you're comparing doing the 10man version of Garrosh with 5 people to doing the 25man version with 25.
People fail because they suck, easy as that.

[Deleted]

And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.

Just out of curiosity, when you formed that 560 ilvl group that failed, why didn't you just invite people with lower ilvl that you know had this skill your talking about, that you so clearly can tell in random people ?

If you had invited people with 540 ilvl cause you thought they had skill, it would have been even worse, but i thought you could tell skill in random people, thats what you've been saying for 2 pages, not so easy huh ?

[Tradu]

And im telling, when you form PuG, you can take your time and invite people with skills, rather than iLvl. That's my critique.

In my world, it is not fine to fail, when i form people with 560, just to suck on normal mode. And now i know, that PuG is not for me.

It is not "fine" to fail, but that's just the reality of PuGs. And you can't take your time, because even if you do, people can lie to you.

[Igby]

I'm locked to Paragons, I just want to kill Garrosh. Why isn't 550 ilvl enough? I understand having the legendary cloak is a very healthy dps increase but c'mon. It is manageable without it. I can still do 200k dps without it, oh and I have to link my achievement too? Give me a break. I get you don't want to sit there and wipe x number of times, I just want my kill for the week.

"LFM N GARROSH KILL 560+ ilvl"
"LFM N GARROSH KILL PST ACHIEVE 550+ LEGENDARY CLOAK REQUIRED"

Hey guys, don't quit playing WoW when you are in the middle of your legendary quest line. The end expansion pugs will be a pain in the ass to get into because you *NEED* it.

*yes I have a guild, we only raid 2 nights a week, 4-5 hours max between the 2 days, killed siegecrafter and called it*

I'M CRY IF I DON'T GET MY WOLF MOUNT.

As said so many times before, MAKE. YOUR. OWN. GROUP...........problem solved.

[Deleted]

How many videos can you find of 5 man gary ? 1 ?
Do they happen to have farmed 25man bis geared and be among the best players in the world ?
How can you even compare the best players in the world, to a random group that often lacks basics tools such a voice communication ?

People can fail cause ilvl does not equal skill and majority of your average flex/normal raider isn't very skilled, higher ilvl will insure a higher ceiling of dps, regardless of what that roof is, in a vaccum where skill does not exist, more ilvl equals more dps. Its really that simple.

You also seem to live in some sort of bubble where wipes doesn't happen, top world guilds spends hundreds of wipes per boss during progression, are they also just bad ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fTg4bGCYE

According to the interview, they have wiped around 20 times. They probably had the best items, but it CANNOT compensate for 25 averagely geared people. It is not logical.

I mean, why would i take the raidleaders serious, when they ask in tradechat for 550 people and full group(sometimes to FLEX mode), when 5 good players gets the job done?

[Tradu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fTg4bGCYE

According to the interview, they have wiped around 20 times. The probably had the best items, but it CANNOT compensate for 25 averagely geared people.

I mean, why would i take the raidleaders serious, when they ask in tradechat for 550 people and full group(sometimes to FLEX mode), when 5 good players gets the job done?

Again, those 5 good players also had some of the best gear available in the game, which is way stronger than 550 ilevel gear. And again.... they weren't compensating for 20 other people, they were compensating for 5.

EDIT: By "way stronger" I mean to the tune of twice as much DPS from ~550 with no cloak and meta to 575 with cloak and meta.

[Wolfhonors]

Who doesn't use OpenRaid? And I'm not making my own group because I'm a follower, not a leader.

There you go. You can't even lead this thread, follower. You can't complain if you can't lead. Your ideas are useless.

[Deleted]

Again, those 5 good players also had some of the best gear available in the game, which is way stronger than 550 ilevel gear. And again.... they weren't compensating for 20 other people, they were compensating for 5.

Well, someday, before the next expansion, people will down him 10-15 man on 25mode. It doesnt matter, it just proves my thinking.

[Deleted]

Agree with Drathos. And even with a parse it is hard to evaluate someone on garrosh.

jugement based on ilvl ?
-> a guy with high ilvl might not follow strat, not do big dps
-> a guy with low ilvl for the context might do enough dps (and 220k dps ST on garrosh is far enough to kill him quickly)

jugement based on xp ? (from wow armory)
-> a guys with one or two down might have been PL, and could mess up. The more down the better, but you filter out a lot of guys with this selection.
-> in particular you might filter out a guy which have tried a lot of time on him, that perfectly know his role

jugement based on dps ? (from epeenbot for example)
-> a guy with high dps (350k+) might have more than half his damage on P1 adds, so it means he had only 175k effective dps. I've witnessed that several times. He might also not switch to MC, which is even worse.
-> you won't know for a guys with no down of garrosh or no parse

jugement based on MC cut ? (require WoL analysis)
-> if you are in a great group, with lot of dps, you will need a grant total of 2 counterspells (for the empowered MC in phase 3). 8 or 9 guys of the roster won't have to counterspell.

From my experience of garrosh in random pugs i joined (~8 down, countless failed groups), you kill it when the group is 565+. Even a group of 560 guys do not work most of the time. Was it because the raidleader was lenient and invited only based on ilvl ? maybe. Was it because these day everybody is in a hurry, and leave after one wipe (or even before the wipe) ? maybe.
Leaving a pug after 3-4 wipes is perfectly acceptable (from my PoV) when you see the raidleader not doing his role (analyzing what's happening, explaining the issues, removing underperforming dudes, etc..), but after one wipe, before even seeing the RL reaction, it is a bit a waste of everyone's time.

So my conclusion :
Do the rest of the instance until you are more geared (that's still 13 bosses). At 550 ilvl, there a lot of upgrades available on those. One day you'll reach a ilvl high enough to get in good pug groups

[Saphyron]

misread what was written nvm

[Deleted]

Agree with Drathos. And even with a parse it is hard to evaluate someone on garrosh.

jugement based on ilvl ?
-> a guy with high ilvl might not follow strat, not do big dps
-> a guy with low ilvl for the context might do enough dps (and 220k dps ST on garrosh is far enough to kill him quickly)

jugement based on xp ? (from wow armory)
-> a guys with one or two down might have been PL, and could mess up. The more down the better, but you filter out a lot of guys with this selection.
-> in particular you might filter out a guy which have tried a lot of time on him, that perfectly know his role

jugement based on dps ? (from epeenbot for example)
-> a guy with high dps (350k+) might have more than half his damage on P1 adds, so it means he had only 175k effective dps. I've witnessed that several times. He might also not switch to MC, which is even worse.
-> you won't know for a guys with no down of garrosh or no parse

jugement based on MC cut ? (require WoL analysis)
-> if you are in a great group, with lot of dps, you will need a grant total of 2 counterspells (for the empowered MC in phase 3). 8 or 9 guys of the roster won't have to counterspell.

From my experience of garrosh in random pugs i joined (~8 down, countless failed groups), you kill it when the group is 565+. Even a group of 560 guys do not work most of the time. Was it because the raidleader was lenient and invited only based on ilvl ? maybe. Was it because these day everybody is in a hurry, and leave after one wipe (or even before the wipe) ? maybe.
Leaving a pug after 3-4 wipes is perfectly acceptable (from my PoV) when you see the raidleader not doing his role (analyzing what's happening, explaining the issues, removing underperforming dudes, etc..), but after one wipe, before even seeing the RL reaction, it is a bit a waste of everyone's time.

Thanks. And i was thinking exactly about, why and how people are failing so much. The first boss in SoO is freaking tuned for iLvl520 people!

I still blame the raidleaders(obviously iLvl alone is NOT enough).

[Giscoicus]

Just out of curiosity, when you formed that 560 ilvl group that failed, why didn't you just invite people with lower ilvl that you know had this skill your talking about, that you so clearly can tell in random people ?

If you had invited people with 540 ilvl cause you thought they had skill, it would have been even worse, but i thought you could tell skill in random people, thats what you've been saying for 2 pages, not so easy huh ?

Gear more or less correlates to skill and experience. A 580 player is skilled 99% of the time.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks. And i was thinking exactly about, why and how people are failing so much. The first boss in SoO is freaking tuned for iLvl520 people!

I still blame the raidleaders(obviously iLvl alone is NOT enough).

People in 520 at the start of the patch were normal mode raiders. Normal mode raiders are 565-ish right now. Those sitting around 520 currently represent a different skill skill demographic than before, closer to LFR heroes. It was 520 ilvl with normal mode skill level. Believe it or not, protectors is too hard for some groups.

[Deleted]

Gear more or less correlates to skill and experience. A 580 player is skilled 99% of the time.

- - - Updated - - -



People in 520 at the start of the patch were normal mode raiders. Normal mode raiders are 565-ish right now. Those sitting around 520 currently represent a different skill skill demographic than before, closer to LFR heroes. It was 520 ilvl with normal mode skill level. Believe it or not, protectors is too hard for some groups.

guys in 580 are skilled, but you can't say for a guy in 520. What if the 520 is a reroll of the 580 ? Is he suddently a total noob ?

[CataclismicSunrise]

Welcome to people Hell, I distinctly recall pugs in Wrath demanding GS so high that you probably needed nothing from the raid to begin with.

The real humor starts when the person setting up the raid doesn't even meet his / her own requirements. "I want a smooth run" and "I want to be carried" are, at times, interchangable.

Wooow, I forgot all about that particular turn of phrase. Gear score. The nostalgia is too powerful in this comment, all I see is trade awash with minimum requirements.

[Pandapuncher]

It takes more than 2 months to get the cloak, so what ? If you can't get in a heroic raiding guild without the cloak, you or the guild you are trying to join probably aren't any good to begin with.

I guess you dont heroic raid. Because at that point skill is pretty much the same. now.

two deathknights, one has the cape. one doesn't.

Who do you take? lemme know.

Oh, and no raider should even entertain the idea that a free legendary is a good idea, even blizzard agrees it was a bad idea.

All raiders agree we shouldnt have to do LFR. but when the cloak comes around. then we all turn into elitist jerks.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't be 530 after weeks of gearing via LFR/Timeless/crafting/valor/Flex. It's just not possible. Timeless burden gear is 543 when upgraded. You would easily have eight or ten burden pieces in 8 weeks if this is your only character and all you are doing is the weekly quests and the shaohao daily once or twice a week and just fiddling around a little. It's one thing to try to grind out a half dozen burdens in one week but if you are talking about the two+ months it normally takes to get a cape then they do start to pile up.

I don't know what you're doing.

plus also not subject to RNG:
561 crafted belt
561 crafted pants
various 530 valor pieces
various 522 honor pieces

the honor peices are nice if you dont have dipshits in the group who think pvp gear isnt exactly the same as pve gear, stat-wise.

unless you're a tank

[Saphyron]

the honor peices are nice if you dont have dipshits in the group who think pvp gear isnt exactly the same as pve gear, stat-wise.

unless you're a tank

Depends on the tank. Prot pala goes haste then mastery. which you can easily get on pvp gear XD

[Exinium]

I was in a similar situation initially. I quit playing when ToT came out, regeared my monk, then leveled my Druid to 90 to play as Resto instead. Unfortunately, this meant my gear level was quite low. Now, I've played Druid for quite a few expansions, so I was confident in my ability to quickly pick up the class and heal admirably. I began gearing it on the side while raiding on my Brewmaster monk. Finally after some drastic roster changes in my first guild, I was able to convince my raid leader to bring my Druid to raid with our 11/14 N Mode guild. I was at an item level of 525 at that point. I pulled admirable healing (I have logs, if anyone's curious as to what I was doing to pull that kind of healing) and I quickly geared running these normal modes. However, due to some conflict, I left my guild at ilevel 538. I found a guild looking for a healer desperately for it's Heroic runs, and lied about my item level, saying I was 540. I'll pause for a second to say I have a pretty impressive pedigree of raiding experience, having had guilds like Blood Legion, Encore, and Raiding Rainbows under my name. This was during Cataclysm and Wrath however. But, due to this list of guilds, it was enough to get a trial for a heroic guild at ilevel 538. RNGesus helped me out and tossed me quite a few bones that raid, gearing me in several pieces of heroic gear and a piece of heroic warforged gear in my first two weeks of raiding. By my third week, my item level had jumped nearly 20. Despite that, I'm still only 553. My healing, however, is incredibly competitive compared to the 560+ healers of the team.

It all comes down to your ability to perform, to show you can perform, and to be confident in your ability. I was scared shitless of going into a heroic raid at item level 538 and blowing my only shot at a trial. But multiple comments were made about my ability to react quickly to multiple situations, and execute boss mechanics consistently without failure. My few deaths were attributed to a small health pool (~200k behind the other healers.) The take-away from this entire thing should be that you should be confident in your raiding ability, and ready to prove it. I've had the luxury of having certain guilds proving I've healed on the top end, but even without this, you should be able to find a break sometime.