Philosophy at University?

[Kaleredar]

I think this perfectly illustrates the malaise that affects the current mentality. We praise people for loving their vocation so much that they benefit society in new and exciting ways; yet in the same breath telling this poor sucker to 'forget his passion' and become a slave to machine.

Because life is hard. And if you want a life with money and affluence, you need to be offering something people need, or at least, want.

Which is where my earlier point of "selling" came in. What are you "selling" to people? Provocative thoughts? The idea that we might all be the dream of a butterfly, but we'll never know either way?

Like I said, if he wants to teach philosophy at a University, then by all means, he should nab that degree and go for it.

But if he's expecting much in the way of job prospects beyond that, it'll be very difficult.

Even more interesting is the fact people call philosophy 'useless'. Philosophy is practically the sole reason you're typing on a computer. Historically, a philosopher and a scientist were one in the same (hence their often very interesting commentary). But now most people in society (rather than just the oligarchs) are more interested in efficiency and big bucks now, so I guess our scientists don't really have time/motivation (or 'authority') to engage in any kind analytical social commentary unless they're pushing a delightfully galvanizing agenda.

Yes yes, we all know the "all sciences are derived from philosophy" quip. Sure. And you can go and be a scientist, but the things a degree in philosophy prepare you for are NOT contemporary science. Contemporary science is about excepting empirical data and formulating predictions based upon said data; philosophy is much more "touchy-feely" than that.

My advice will differ. Do you value money or your passion more? If you value money get a degree with financial utility. If like me you'll probably commit suicide (or produce unhappy offspring) if you have to work a career for more than 2 years you despise; maybe you should go with your passion. Happy people drain society far less than malcontent ones in my view.

And if someone wants to sit under a bodhi tree all day and meditate, more power to them. But they shouldn't expect sitting under that tree is going to bring them much money, and then be angry when it doesn't.

[Deleted]

At the risk of actually answering the OP's question rather than just banging on about how bad philosophy is for leading to a career job (and yes, it's terrible, but then so is nearly every degree these days because there are no jobs anyway), I've just finished nine years of academic philosophy, undergrad and post, and here's how I'd characterise the subject.

If you look at what you actually learn about in philosophy (in terms of facts), it will mainly be a bunch of old dudes from ye olde times banging on about very abstract topics like the ultimate nature of right and wrong, or whether stuff is made of stuff. The real value of philosophy isn't the content, though, but in teaching you to think about the content a certain way. What a philosophy course teaches, ultimately, is analytical thought; the ability to pull apart an argument, test each piece of it for correctness, check that they all work together to lead to the conclusion and so on. Associated with this, you'll learn to approach debates, even hot-button, controversial ones, with the level of detachment necessary to see multiple sides of the argument and thus to understand the problem a lot better.

Philosophy courses, or at least good ones, tend to be much less formal than other academic environments. Many classes will be discussion-based, and because philosophers have written about every topic under the sun, everything is up for discussion (for my MA, I did a module in the philosophy of science fiction, where we covered things like The Matrix, I, Robot and The Time Machine). Assessment still tends to be more by essay than exam, but this is less true than it used to be.

So studying philosophy is a lot of fun, and teaches some very useful skills (particularly if you spend any great length of time on the internet), but employers don't rate it very highly (and nor, it would seem, do most MMO-champ commenters ). If you want to pursue a degree that leads to a job, then philosophy is a terrible idea, but (and, of course, I'm speaking as a philosopher when I say this) pursuing a degree just because it leads to a job is making the wrong use of university time - and more seriously, I'm not convinced that any degree counts very much for employment these days. I have friends with hardcore biosciences degrees who now work in coffee shops.

---edit---

Apparently one thing that philosophy will teach you to do is USE ALL THE PARENTHESES. Sorry about that >.>''

[Deleted]

It's as useless as rubbish like "History of Art". At least with Graphic Design there are a lot of job opportunities after University. You can also freelance, there's a lot of places online that allow you to do that.

The question is really:

Would you rather be in debt with a pretentious insight of the world, or be making decent money and possibly be self employed?

[Valech]

If you decide to study Philosophy at University, be sure to have a plan what to do with it afterwards. If you are going to work in any area involving ethical decisions and/or social interactions, philosophy is a great additional perk in any application. People, who hire tend to construe a lot of things into people with a degree in philosophy. Also, asides the job aspect, at least in germany Philosophy has proven to be a great subject to increase my horizon regarding authors and views. I do not regret studying it.

I studied latin and philosophy btw. Became teacher.

[RapBreon]

I think the real issue here isn't that philosophy as a discipline is useless, but that a philosophy degree is. What someone enjoys is important. But if you're going to spend four years and a lot of money to earn a paper, you should try and make it worth something. After that, if you still want to be a philosopher, no one's going to say you can't be because you don't have a philosophy degree.

I think if the individual who attains the degree is happy with it and it brings them fulfillment, it is worth quite a large sum. There is more value than the monetary kind. But in the view of our delightfully skewed society it is 'useless', the idea of any field of inquiry especially one with such a colourful and robust history is useless; I find sad.

A degree doesn't make you a philosopher, I concur. But a degree can certainly help you make sense of it, understand it, hell even determine what philosophy is considered worth a damn and what isn't (via what is simply taught to you). Also typically those courses produce the most critical and well-rounded students in terms of a skill set, it's just no specialisation = not worth money in the current climate.

A poster above (Gnomedejeu) describes it well, the real value in the degree is the skills it teaches you and it teaches it very well.

Because life is hard. And if you want a life with money and affluence, you need to be offering something people need, or at least, want.

Which is where my earlier point of "selling" came in. What are you "selling" to people? Provocative thoughts? The idea that we might all be the dream of a butterfly, but we'll never know either way?

To be entirely honest I don't understand your point. But who (well societal values, but hey) said he wants a life of money and affluence? Maybe a standard existence full of deep thought is his idea of a fulfilling existence?

Yes yes, we all know the "all sciences are derived from philosophy" quip. Sure. And you can go and be a scientist, but the things a degree in philosophy prepare you for are NOT contemporary science. Contemporary science is about excepting empirical data and formulating predictions based upon said data; philosophy is much more "touchy-feely" than that.

It's not a quip. Philosophy is as much about observation as science is; in matter of fact both serve to improve the tool-sets of each other. That was why they were such close siblings for so long.

And if someone wants to sit under a bodhi tree all day and meditate, more power to them. But they shouldn't expect sitting under that tree is going to bring them much money, and then be angry when it doesn't.

But it may be an existence he desires, that is up to him to decide.

Also thinking and meditating are 'typically' opposites btw. One 'typically' involves deep thought, the other 'typically' involves clearing your mind to find a form of peace. Emphasis on those quotation marks.

EDIT: Two conversations at once is bound to confuse me, I apologise if I crossed the streams somewhere.

Speaking of design, OP I hope you're competitive, the design world is goddamn cutthroat, just a heads up.

[gooftastic]

I think if the individual who attains the degree is happy with it and it brings them fulfillment, it is worth quite a large sum. There is more value than the monetary kind. But in the view of our delightfully skewed society it is 'useless', the idea of any field of inquiry especially one with such a colourful and robust history is useless; I find sad.

A degree doesn't make you a philosopher, I concur. But a degree can certainly help you make sense of it, understand it, hell even determine what philosophy is considered worth a damn and what isn't (via what is simply taught to you). Also typically those courses produce the most critical and well-rounded students in terms of a skill set, it's just no specialisation = not worth money in the current climate.

To be entirely honest I don't understand your point. But who (well societal values, but hey) said he wants a life of money and affluence? Maybe a standard existence full of deep thought is his idea of a fulfilling existence?.

Those are fair enough points. I just feel that the idea "you will have a hard time making money" is one he should be highly aware of. Yes, right now everyone has a hard time making money, regardless of their degree, but that doesn't discount the fact that some are worse than others.

There's also the idea of "a standard existence full of deep thought is his idea of a fulfilling existence." This still requires money to live. And even working in an office will pay better and be less tiring than retail, leaving you more time to spend in thought.

[Kaleredar]

To be entirely honest I don't understand your point. But who (well societal values, but hey) said he wants a life of money and affluence? Maybe a standard existence full of deep thought is his idea of a fulfilling existence?

You still have to make that existence somehow.

It's not a quip. Philosophy is as much about observation as science is; in matter of fact both serve to improve the tool-sets of each other. That was why they were such close siblings for so long.

Close at one time, but not so much anymore. You aren't going to be hired at JPL for a degree in philosophy.

But it may be an existence he desires, that is up to him to decide.

Hence "more power to him."

Also thinking and meditating are 'typically' opposites btw. One 'typically' involves deep thought, the other 'typically' involves clearing your mind to find a form of peace. Emphasis on those quotation marks.

The point was is that you're sitting around and doing a lot of thinking. And if you want to sit around and do a lot of thinking, you sure can... but in today's world, you can't also expect money and affluence and a two-story house to come along with that stuff if ALL you're doing is sitting and thinking. You have to turn it INTO something that people want. Artists do it, writers do it, professors do it. But you can't sit around expecting to "philosophize" all day and make a living at it.

[Deleted]

I had a philosophy class in the 4th year of my high school
no OP they don't care about your philosophy, all you'll do is gonna be studying about the philosophers of the past
not to mention you won't find a job unless you plan on being a philosophy teacher or something

good luck

[Cusco]

My view is that university itself is about learning that which you're passionate about, no matter how much money you'll earn from the degree, in order to become happier. From that perspective, I highly recommend that you do read philosophy if that's what you're passionate about. However, as university spans a relatively short period of one's life and because it's very difficult to get a job in philosophy, I would recommend majoring in some other subject that you also enjoy and that is likely to get you a job, and to just take a few courses in philosophy. I wouldn't think too much about money, at least not about becoming rich, because enjoying what you do is far more important than having a fat wallet.

[RapBreon]

Those are fair enough points. I just feel that the idea "you will have a hard time making money" is one he should be highly aware of. Yes, right now everyone has a hard time making money, regardless of their degree, but that doesn't discount the fact that some are worse than others.

There's also the idea of "a standard existence full of deep thought is his idea of a fulfilling existence." This still requires money to live. And even working in an office will pay better and be less tiring than retail, leaving you more time to spend in thought.

I agree an informed decision is a good decision, that is why I asked him to put his values into perspective. And you are right to inform him that he is disturbing societal notions of value by attaining said degree; I just feel that he shouldn't be bullied (not implying you specifically were) by that train of thought as it seems to be very forceful. As is to be expected I guess.

A philosophy degree should be able to land him an office job which he can auto-pilot while pondering the universe. Retail would be terrible, nothing destroys a train of thought like a self-entitled customer screeching at you for something. Oh god the horror. Could always consider becoming a monk! :P

-snip-

Your points all return to the same assumption, he values as you do. I'm saying, maybe not? For example I care not for a two-story house, affluence and lots of cash-money. If I with my current ideals attempted to gun for that, I swear by Odin I would legit go berserk and either; kill someone, kill myself or produce VERY UNHAPPY INFANTS who would then tax society 20 years down the track with all the mental issues I gave them because my life was vapid and meaningless in my view.

On the flip side he might be enthralled by the current model of thinking so deeply and try to gun for his passion and end-up being hypothetical me because he's poor. The right answer to this question is how well does he know himself, which only he can answer (if at all).

Additionally, philosophers can turn their philosophising into money, by writing books, teaching and most importantly connecting with people and building relationships (like every profession ever; e.g being a successful engineer has nothing to with being a great engineer). The assumption that they sit there in the thinking man pose 16 hours a day is an interesting one, but not necessarily accurate; even historically they wrote, a lot! There is of course no arguing that the demand for pure philosophically derived commodities is low, but that does make it impossible, especially if you get creative. Finally, the degree is more useful for things other than philosophising are previously mentioned.

[Wildmoon]

I am studying major Philosophy. I don't know what it's like in your country bout in Thailand it's kinda ok to study in philosophy cuz you can do all kind of jobs. Yes, it's very broad and can be hard to find a job that suit you but I love it so I am not that worried about it. Teacher would be the most suited job for people who studied philosophy though. Personally, I don't plan on becoming rich or something.

What philosophy is is actually the last question you would ask after you finished your study though.

[gooftastic]

I am studying major Philosophy. I don't know what it's like in your country bout in Thailand it's kinda ok to study in philosophy cuz you can do all kind of jobs.

You actually bring up a very good point, that a few others have mentioned as well. Is OP American? If not, then he can probably bump it up a couple notches on the financial viability scale.

[RapBreon]

You actually bring up a very good point, that a few others have mentioned as well. Is OP American? If not, then he can probably bump it up a couple notches on the financial viability scale.

Oh yeah, that's a really good point. I'm not American, this may be why I see more value in it than the others. Other countries tend to recognise the type of student produced by said degree.

Scratch that, I hail from mini America and our current administration hates any kind of intellectual pursuit.

[Kaleredar]

Your points all return to the same assumption, he values as you do. I'm saying, maybe not? For example I care not for a two-story house, affluence and lots of cash-money.

Seeing as he's intent on asking about the "prospects" of a philosophy degree (on a WoW forum,) and whether it's a "good idea to pick up," I'd say he's at least somewhat concerned with the returns on such a degree. And what answer would he be seeking otherwise? "yes, don't worry, it's going to bring you inner fulfillment?"

If I with my current ideals attempted to gun for that, I swear by Odin I would legit go berserk and either; kill someone, kill myself or produce VERY UNHAPPY INFANTS who would then tax society 20 years down the track with all the mental issues I gave them because my life was vapid and meaningless in my view.

If you wanted to think deep, insightful thoughts, I'm sure there are better ways of doing that than acquiring some sheet of paper that says you can for tens of thousands of dollars.

Oh the flip side he might be enthralled by the current model of thinking so deeply and try to gun for his passion and end-up being hypothetical me because he's poor. The right answer to this question is how well does he know himself, which only he can answer (if at all).

Additionally, philosophers can turn their philosophising into money, by writing books, teaching and most importantly connecting with people and building relationships (like every profession ever; e.g being a successful engineer has nothing to with being a great engineer). There is of course no arguing that the demand for pure philosophically derived commodities is low, but that does make it impossible. Finally, the degree is more useful for things other than philosophising are previously mentioned.

And again, there are decidedly less expensive avenues to achieve those things than going for a full four years of philosophy. This isn't a "a ticket costs only your mind" situation. These tickets cost actual money.

[Darnash]

Wow. I legitimately think it's very, very sad how much skepticism, let alone downright hostility, there is towards philosophy in modern society. I will address the viability of majoring in it in a moment, but first I'll describe what you'll actually study:

Philosophy is generally broken into four subtopics. Originally, everything was considered philosophy; geometry, physics, psychology, and every other branch of science was originally part of the "natural sciences", as a branch of philosophical thought. With the development of the scientific method, we gained a more surefire way of investigating things. But, that method is inherently limited to what we can observe, test, and repeat. Essentially, any question that cannot be answered yet by the scientific method is still considered to be a branch of philosophy.

So what does this cover? The first major branch is Metaphysics, which asks about the nature of reality. This goes beyond questions regarding multiverses, quantum mechanics, and string theory; each of these are in some way subject to the scientific method, and metaphysical theories tend to speculate about things which cannot be observed. Take Plato's metaphysics, which posits that there exists perfect "Forms" of anything you can conceive, existing outside of our temporal and spatial reality, of which everything material is merely an imperfect approximation. This is best illustrated by the concept of a circle: nowhere in the universe is there a perfect circle, yet you can conceptualize it's nature by thinking "a circle is a line, with no width or depth, consisting of an infinite amount of points all equidistant from a central point". Using this definition, you can compare material circles and see which ones are closer approximations of the perfect form. Plato would argue that you could use this process to conceptualize the nature of everything ranging from inoculate (chairs, beds, erasers, etc.) to the virtuous (goodness, justice, courage, etc). Can you prove him wrong? Objectively, no. Right? Again, no. But accepting whether you believe in an objective good has massive real world applications, and if you decide that you do believe in it you need to understand the rational implications so you can apply a consistent worldview.

This matter of "rational/logical consistency" is present in every branch of philosophy. Science has the scientific method, and we have Reason. I won't give in depth examples anymore (for the sake of time), but here's the rest of the branches:

Epistemology, which studies the nature of knowledge. It covers topics such as empiricism and rationalism, and generally can be called the philosophy of the mind.

Axiology, which studies the nature of beauty and the good. It covers topics such as aesthetics and ethics.

Logic, which studies the nature of rationality itself. This includes both traditional logic (which is basically argumentation) and symbolic logic (which is basically the basis of math).

No question in philosophy can be definitely proven or disproven, but each theory is accompanied with real world implications. There is a wonderful tradition and history, and you can learn about the roots and evolution of our political system, our creation of science, and/or our quest to discover the nature of the mind.

Now, on to real world "usefulness".

I am not a philosophy major. I'm currently a student at UCLA, majoring in Political Science with a minor in Philosophy. I'm planning on going to law school after graduation, and I'm looking at schools like Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. I cannot credit Philosophy for putting me in that position, but I can say that it has certainly been the most enjoyable part of my education thusfar. Philosophy will force you to think, and get you to question the basic assumptions that most people have about society and human nature. You will probably be annoying for a few years (it's really hard not to bust out philosophical arguments on your friends, or point out their logical errors, but w/e), but in the end you will be a well-rounded person will a solid set of ethics and a respectable code by which to live your life. I, personally, think this is valuable. But that is not philosophy's only benefit.

Despite what other people might say, philosophy is one of the best degrees to develop your critical reading and writing skills. Almost every professional environment will require good writing skills, and majoring in philosophy is basically an unending barrage of essays and papers. You won't be asked to just regurgitate theories; you will be asked to apply them, to draw out logical conclusions, and to even "philosophize" independently. For this reason, you will also develop your argumentation skills. Again, these are valuable in every part of life (though, as previously noted, it might take some time to learn when to appropriately apply them). Everything from interviewing, to presentations, to letters... at their core, they're all arguments. Between logic and axiology, you'll be well-prepared.

As noted by a previous poster, one of the best ways to apply what you learn in Philosophy is to go to law school. Philosophy majors score higher than any other major on the LSAT. The test is completely comprised of logical reasoning and critical reading sections, and no major teaches these skills better than philosophy. The LSAT is incredibly important on a law school application. It will often make up somewhere between 30% and 70% of an admission officer's decision. And philosophy is no joke to admissions officers either; if your transcript shows you got an A in symbolic logic, they know you mean business.

As for applying it elsewhere, Philosophy is no different than any other major (even STEM ones). It's not about the classes you take, but the activities you do aside from them. If you don't get internships, don't volunteer, don't network and make connections, and you plan to get a job with only a bachelor's degree... you're pretty much doomed to fail regardless of your major.

Now, even with all this being said, I still urge caution in deciding whether or not to do philosophy. It is NOT a major to do without a plan. Really no major is, but philosophy is also interesting enough that you can get absorbed into it and lose sight of what your goals are after college. Ironically, philosophy is not a major to "find yourself" in. You need to know where you want to go, and then start early in making sure that your philosophical education is contributing to the realization of that future. Otherwise, as others have cautioned, you're just going to end up teaching philosophy. I know plenty of kids in my classes who don't have any vision, who don't know what they want to do, or perhaps they want to go to law school but they haven't kept up the GPA necessary to get into a good one. I honestly don't know what they're going to do. But there are plenty more who are incredibly intelligent, motivated, and prepared to be successful in whatever they choose to do.

Philosophy is one of those things that never goes away. You don't need a class to pick up Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, nor Kant's Metaphysics of Morals and lose yourself in the minds of history's greatest thinkers. Nothing prevents you from coming back to school after a successful life, and learning then (I know several 60+ year old students in my classes). None of the objective things you learn in philosophy will be at all useful in a career in the private market. But to say that a degree in philosophy is useless is just ignorant. If you're the right kind of person, it can be the most valuable part of your education. Neither myself nor any of the other posters are in a position to make a decision as to whether you are that kind of person; that's a question you have to answer for yourself. I urge you to give it all due and honest consideration.

[Deleted]

You actually bring up a very good point, that a few others have mentioned as well. Is OP American? If not, then he can probably bump it up a couple notches on the financial viability scale.

not really just american
studying philosophy is pretty worthless in europe too

[RapBreon]

Seeing as he's intent on asking about the "prospects" of a philosophy degree (on a WoW forum,) and whether it's a "good idea to pick up," I'd say he's at least somewhat concerned with the returns on such a degree. And what answer would he be seeking otherwise? "yes, don't worry, it's going to bring you inner fulfillment?"

Sure, but I don't think constantly berating him with your forceful rhetoric is a particularly balanced approach on the subject. The same goes in the reverse, the fact that he's even piqued by philosophy also goes to prove that he may be interested in a different path than the one you believe in.

If you wanted to think deep, insightful thoughts, I'm sure there are better ways of doing that than acquiring some sheet of paper that says you can for tens of thousands of dollars.

As previously mentioned those degrees actually produce the most well-rounded graduates. If you wanted the absolute best education to set a foundation for a life of critical thinking it may be worth it. Even better if you're passionate, because you'll be very well-read out of sheer interest. Staggering grades a good knowledge base coupled with likability (the most important part) can land you a job in fields that don't have strict specific degree requirements. Failing these things, if he gets good grades, his lecturers like him (at least it's like that here) and is willing to teach he should be able land himself a job.

It's also very hard to substitute the guiding hand and experience of someone with a PhD. Philosophical subjects can be grueling to read, without guidance or someone you know is experienced to interpret it can be a major pain and lead you to questionable conclusions.

And again, there are decidedly less expensive avenues to achieve those things than going for a full four years of philosophy. This isn't a "a ticket costs only your mind" situation. These tickets cost actual money.

You have a similar bias. 'A ticket costs only your money'.

As previously mentioned, other countries (assuming American) place more value in said degree. And while I edited it in, albeit late; you can still turn it into a profit, with a bit of creativity, networking or different life-style choices. Despite your mental image of a philosopher sitting in the thinking man position all day, that is not all it entails. It probably involves more writing than thinking to be honest.

I understand where you're coming from and where your values lie, especially the esteem you place in 'practicality', and I get it; even more so if you're American. But an informed decision involves more than one side.

Edit: To be honest if you really wanted a field that produces has some kind of 'respect' but offers some philosophical tidings, a field like Sociology would work. I mean Sociology is still laughed at, but hey it's a science! And tackles philosophical issues (granted about people) as much as it does research ones.

[gooftastic]

As previously mentioned those degrees actually produce the most well-rounded graduates. If you wanted the absolute best education to set a foundation for a life of critical thinking it may be worth it. Even better if you're passionate, because you'll be very well-read out of sheer interest. Staggering grades a good knowledge base coupled with likability (the most important part) can land you a job in fields that don't have strict specific degree requirements. Failing these things, if he gets good grades, his lecturers like him (at least it's like that here) and is willing to teach he should be able land himself a job.

Probably the most important part. OP, if you're really passionate about philosophy, and want it to be your life's work, then you really should be prepared to teach it. Not to pass anymore judgement on the subject, but teaching is essentially the job in the field.

[Collegeguy]

The question should be what job do I want to do, not what degree should I get.

[Halicia]

http://www.payscale.com/college-sala...t-pay-you-back

I think a lot of people might be surprised how Philosophy majors stand in relation to other perceived 'well paying' fields.

Specifically in regards to the OP, it pays substantially more then Graphics Design. (and how many people here claimed the exact opposite ?)

The reason for this is likely because it is a preferred major for pre-law and pre-med students as it develops critical thinking, writing, and research (which can be applied to a wider variety of fields than simply teaching philosophy)