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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I vomited a little reading this.

    Prot Paladins do way more raid healing than BM monks, it's called Eternal Flame, which they can maintain 1 on themselves and 2 on others. Monks don't have a single shred of it without guard.

    If you don't know this, it means you are running with a bad prot pally, or you never ran with one before and are just pretending to be knowledgeable on the subject.
    My main is a Prot Paladin. At the time I did it I only really had time to EF the raid during the Annihilation phases and while not tanking Garrosh during P2/P3 whirls. Though our item level was really low so had to focus a lot on survival, I guess you could probably use it more on the raid now. In P1 and P4 it really served no purpose. I have not played my monk in SoO. Have they nerfed the statue? The statue should be doing a shitton more healing than a paladin does on the raid.

    Presuming monks have not changed as I have not played it or with a monk since ToT, but back then most people were just too stupid to realise how much raid healing monks brought just because that healing is not recorded on recount. For most WoW players, if recount does not show it, it didnt happen.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    My main is a Prot Paladin. At the time I did it I only really had time to EF the raid during the Annihilation phases and while not tanking Garrosh during P2/P3 whirls. Though our item level was really low so had to focus a lot on survival, I guess you could probably use it more on the raid now. In P1 and P4 it really served no purpose. I have not played my monk in SoO. Have they nerfed the statue? The statue should be doing a shitton more healing than a paladin does on the raid.

    Presuming monks have not changed as I have not played it or with a monk since ToT, but back then most people were just too stupid to realise how much raid healing monks brought just because that healing is not recorded on recount. For most WoW players, if recount does not show it, it didnt happen.
    Who is serious about raiding uses recount now? Much less recount as a primary way of evaluating the effectiveness of players in said raid?

    That aside, there's a difference between "can't be arsed to heal the raid" and "can't heal the raid". I hope you can tell the difference between the two.

    P.S. Statue is ok-ish for single target burst shielding, too bad it's uncontrollable for the most part unlike EF(EF definitely heals for way more than what guard prevents, just look at fights where prot pallies get to solo tank, like Thok and Malkorok's BR).
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Who is serious about raiding uses recount now? Much less recount as a primary way of evaluating the effectiveness of players in said raid?

    That aside, there's a difference between "can't be arsed to heal the raid" and "can't heal the raid". I hope you can tell the difference between the two.

    P.S. Statue is ok-ish for single target burst shielding, too bad it's uncontrollable for the most part unlike EF(EF definitely heals for way more than what guard prevents, just look at fights where prot pallies get to solo tank, like Thok and Malkorok's BR).
    Paladin self healing =/= raid healing.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Who is serious about raiding uses recount now? Much less recount as a primary way of evaluating the effectiveness of players in said raid?

    That aside, there's a difference between "can't be arsed to heal the raid" and "can't heal the raid". I hope you can tell the difference between the two.

    P.S. Statue is ok-ish for single target burst shielding, too bad it's uncontrollable for the most part unlike EF(EF definitely heals for way more than what guard prevents, just look at fights where prot pallies get to solo tank, like Thok and Malkorok's BR).
    It's actually quite even.

    Also, you sound insanely stuck-up and should try to interpret your signature again.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    the classes that can do mechanics. The fight can be done with any class combination. The fight is about teamwork, coordination, understanding your role/class and not dying to dumb shit.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Why do you need tank cooldowns ?
    A deathknight with the vial of corrupted essence (or w/e it's called)

    Is one of the hardest things to kill in Warcraft

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Paladin self healing =/= raid healing.
    Main thing is that a monks raid healing comes in a "constant" stream (sort of), also when you don't need it, and has a chance to fall off. A paladin on the other hand, with 400K vengeance, can keep the raid alive with Lights hammer alone through a whirl, and can do this on every other "hard damage" phase (EG intermission+1 whirl, or 2 whirls) of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandapuncher View Post
    A deathknight with the vial of corrupted essence (or w/e it's called)

    Is one of the hardest things to kill in Warcraft
    That has nothing to do with anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    the classes that can do mechanics. The fight can be done with any class combination. The fight is about teamwork, coordination, understanding your role/class and not dying to dumb shit.
    #edgy4life.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Main thing is that a monks raid healing comes in a "constant" stream (sort of), also when you don't need it, and has a chance to fall off. A paladin on the other hand, with 400K vengeance, can keep the raid alive with Lights hammer alone through a whirl, and can do this on every other "hard damage" phase (EG intermission+1 whirl, or 2 whirls) of the fight.
    So can a monk. Step one is that you will likely not have have 400k vengeance, especially if you are two tanking it. EFing the raid has a high opportuinity cost. You are most likely using Holy Prism over Lights hammer. A monks chi wave and chi burst can also heal for decent amounts. If the monk really wants it he can spec into chi torpedo for the healing, but that is not really needed.

    A paladin is not an insane raid healer anymore, it is not 5.2.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So can a monk. Step one is that you will likely not have have 400k vengeance, especially if you are two tanking it. EFing the raid has a high opportuinity cost. You are most likely using Holy Prism over Lights hammer. A monks chi wave and chi burst can also heal for decent amounts. If the monk really wants it he can spec into chi torpedo for the healing, but that is not really needed.

    A paladin is not an insane raid healer anymore, it is not 5.2.
    If you design your strategy around wanting the paladin to have 400K vengeance, he'll have 400K vengeance. It was an example, though, but hopefully you get the point even if it's just a more standard ~250-300K vengeance. As for EF, it's mostly strong in the intermissions when the choise is between SOTR to reduce the physical damage that doesn't exist, or EF to heal someone. Why you'd want to use prism for a medium heal every 20 seconds when it lines up with nothing except 1 heal during whirl, compared to what is essentially a raid cd, is something I can't entirely wrap my head around. Care to elaborate?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    If you design your strategy around wanting the paladin to have 400K vengeance, he'll have 400K vengeance. It was an example, though, but hopefully you get the point even if it's just a more standard ~250-300K vengeance. As for EF, it's mostly strong in the intermissions when the choise is between SOTR to reduce the physical damage that doesn't exist, or EF to heal someone. Why you'd want to use prism for a medium heal every 20 seconds when it lines up with nothing except 1 heal during whirl, compared to what is essentially a raid cd, is something I can't entirely wrap my head around. Care to elaborate?
    Prism heals for significant burst healing and as it is a smart heal it can burst anyone that drops low op really quickly. Lights Hammer is far less useful in a 10 man environment as prism basically heals half the raid and overall is very awkward to target. It works decently on whirls depending on your strat but for transitions prism is a lot better. Its shorter cooldown also comes in use at several times.

    I highly doubt you will find any good protection paladin that used Lights Hammer. If you had tried a protadin you would understand. Prism is 10x better than LH on Garrosh. Unless you had a tailormade strategy or some weird strategy where LH somehow works, it is no reason to use it.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-04-28 at 03:11 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Prism heals for significant burst healing and as it is a smart heal it can burst anyone that drops low op really quickly. Lights Hammer is far less useful in a 10 man environment as prism basically heals half the raid and overall is very awkward to target. It works decently on whirls depending on your strat but for transitions prism is a lot better. Its shorter cooldown also comes in use at several times.

    I highly doubt you will find any good protection paladin that used Lights Hammer. If you had tried a protadin you would understand. Prism is 10x better than LH on Garrosh. Unless you had a tailormade strategy or some weird strategy where LH somehow works, it is no reason to use it.
    I do have a lowly geared prot pally, and I can't imagine what you're doing if lights hammer isn't far more effective in intermissions. The standard usually is to have everyone standing almost inside the boss' hitbox from what I've seen, so targetting the hammer straight on the boss means you'll hit everyone with it, granted they don't run off to australia or something. Prism does heal half the raid, but it's one heal every 20 seconds, so once during a whirl, while hammer keeps healing during the entire whirl.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I do have a lowly geared prot pally, and I can't imagine what you're doing if lights hammer isn't far more effective in intermissions. The standard usually is to have everyone standing almost inside the boss' hitbox from what I've seen, so targetting the hammer straight on the boss means you'll hit everyone with it, granted they don't run off to australia or something. Prism does heal half the raid, but it's one heal every 20 seconds, so once during a whirl, while hammer keeps healing during the entire whirl.
    Prism is much better for allowing your melees to stay in melee for whirls. There is a reason you (probably) wont find a single good protadin using LH on that fight. Prism is just great.
    Honestly I also find prism better for intermissions. Intermissions is not so much about raw throughput as helping healers with burst if they fall behind.
    People also do a terrible job at standing in LH during transition.

    Not to mention that LH is completely useless on empowered whirls while prism is a beast there.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #33
    Dunno. Out of the top 25 HPS-protpallys on garrosh, only two used Arcing light. Seems to do about the same healing overall in the logs, but obviously you're gonna have hammer when it "matters", rather than useless damage every other hit. As for "catching up", that's true with 2 healers, but with one? He's going to fall behind, and it'll happen fast. He needs shaman healing rains and offhealing from whatever can do it. I'd agree that with 2 healers a burst would probably be better, in both scenarios, though.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Dunno. Out of the top 25 HPS-protpallys on garrosh, only two used Arcing light. Seems to do about the same healing overall in the logs, but obviously you're gonna have hammer when it "matters", rather than useless damage every other hit. As for "catching up", that's true with 2 healers, but with one? He's going to fall behind, and it'll happen fast. He needs shaman healing rains and offhealing from whatever can do it. I'd agree that with 2 healers a burst would probably be better, in both scenarios, though.
    You will see that Paragons protection paladin did not use Lights Hammer, and he did not EF the raid either. He used EF a few times to help get someone up, but most of the time he didnt use EF either.

    Lights Hammer is just not that good on that fight. Especially since it is completely useless on the empowered whirls which is quite heavy raid wipers.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I do have a lowly geared prot pally, and I can't imagine what you're doing if lights hammer isn't far more effective in intermissions. The standard usually is to have everyone standing almost inside the boss' hitbox from what I've seen, so targetting the hammer straight on the boss means you'll hit everyone with it, granted they don't run off to australia or something. Prism does heal half the raid, but it's one heal every 20 seconds, so once during a whirl, while hammer keeps healing during the entire whirl.

    Can you explain stacking on garrosh during whirl? That seems like it would kill the raid pretty quick on heroic.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    Can you explain stacking on garrosh during whirl? That seems like it would kill the raid pretty quick on heroic.
    The first 3 whirls? not at all. There's just the two empowered to consider, I guess. But even the "normal" whirls are going to get heavy with just one healer.

  17. #37
    Hi Mr Owldude, I'll try help ya out.

    2 x Warlock
    2 x Hunters
    2 x Mages
    Ele Shaman (+ Heal spec)
    Fury Warrior
    Moonkin
    Ret Paladin (+ Heal spec)

    Looking at that, I would take 2 warlocks, 2 hunters, ele shaman, moonkin and either your warrior or your ret, both are pretty decent for the fight. The reason having atleast one of those is really useful is that a solid mitigation cooldown for the p4 ironstar can ease alooot of pressure on the healer to have everyone at 100%.

    Stick a destro warlock on the engineers. I reccomend putting that same warlock in your desecrate group, that way they are usually in a position where the adds wont fuck them over.

    Hardest part for your disc to heal will be t1. I'd reccomend your guardian druid takes heart of the wild and spends that phase offhealing by blanket rejuving the raid. Heart of the wild will be off cooldown for the second empowered whirling (for us that came in p3) and he can offheal again there.

    We opted to afk as opposed to burn the 2nd transition, at the cost of getting an empowered whirling in phase two. This allows all your DPS cooldowns to reset for P3 and your healer to regen mana which they're probably pretty short of by then.

    Get your moonkin to hold all his dps cooldowns for t1. It will help ALOT and running with a setup like that, dps should be sort of a nonissue.

    And don't try kiting adds from whirling corruptions, much easier just to kill them. This is a link to the cooldown rotation I made before we did garrosh. http://ge.tt/321awaO1/v/0 . The timings might be a bit off, but its accurate atleast up until the second whirling corruption. The timer starts as the cleaves start happening in jade temple. I really would reccomend having a preset cooldown rotation, it will help SO MUCH.

    Hope I helped!

    EDIT: Given how similar your setup is to ours seeing our tactics might help you get an idea of what you wanna do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7dCCiJyAgU
    Last edited by Nightrisee; 2014-04-28 at 11:10 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrisee View Post
    Hi Mr Owldude, I'll try help ya out.

    2 x Warlock
    2 x Hunters
    2 x Mages
    Ele Shaman (+ Heal spec)
    Fury Warrior
    Moonkin
    Ret Paladin (+ Heal spec)

    Looking at that, I would take 2 warlocks, 2 hunters, ele shaman, moonkin and either your warrior or your ret, both are pretty decent for the fight. The reason having atleast one of those is really useful is that a solid mitigation cooldown for the p4 ironstar can ease alooot of pressure on the healer to have everyone at 100%.

    Stick a destro warlock on the engineers. I reccomend putting that same warlock in your desecrate group, that way they are usually in a position where the adds wont fuck them over.

    Hardest part for your disc to heal will be t1. I'd reccomend your guardian druid takes heart of the wild and spends that phase offhealing by blanket rejuving the raid. Heart of the wild will be off cooldown for the second empowered whirling (for us that came in p3) and he can offheal again there.

    We opted to afk as opposed to burn the 2nd transition, at the cost of getting an empowered whirling in phase two. This allows all your DPS cooldowns to reset for P3 and your healer to regen mana which they're probably pretty short of by then.

    Get your moonkin to hold all his dps cooldowns for t1. It will help ALOT and running with a setup like that, dps should be sort of a nonissue.

    And don't try kiting adds from whirling corruptions, much easier just to kill them. This is a link to the cooldown rotation I made before we did garrosh.. The timings might be a bit off, but its accurate atleast up until the second whirling corruption. The timer starts as the cleaves start happening in jade temple. I really would reccomend having a preset cooldown rotation, it will help SO MUCH.

    Hope I helped!

    EDIT: Given how similar your setup is to ours seeing our tactics might help you get an idea of what you wanna do.
    Thanks a lot for the help to all of you.

    Do you have any specific advice how to assign the T1 groups?
    I think the Moonkin would be better suited for one of the groups on the back, dotting while getting there.


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