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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by KClovesGaming View Post
    Exactly. There were two reasons (IMO, anyways) why no one raided in TBC. The first being that everyone was so new to the game that raiding the very top raids were non existent on everyone's radar. The second being that if you wanted to raid more, you couldn't. There was no catch up mechanic. Most guilds couldn't be bothered to bring any one who had lower gear on. To say it was very elitist was an under statement. Those people would sit around Shattrath and "show off". Don't get me wrong, it is my favorite expansion to date, but I'm glad those days are long gone. And I'm glad Blizzard recognized it and started to change raiding in Wrath and so forth.

    I will say though that it would be different if the same system was implemented. Most people aren't new and have been through the ringers enough times to know how it works. So it is possible that it could work. Who knows.
    I joined in late Vanilla, but did not raid. I leveled a fresh 70 in TBC and joined a new guild. Together, we started running dungeons, heroics and Kara. We ultimately worked our way through Hyjal and BT before nerfs. We regularly geared up new players and Alts through T4 content so they could participate in t5 and beyond. Once badges were given for Kara and Heroics, it became even easier to gear up new guild members. Personally, I loved the model (it played out similarly in WoLTK using Nax as Kara for gearing and badges). Personally, I thought the TBC model was good for hard core and newer raiders alike. With that being said, I am saying this post-Gruul and Mag nerf and after they removed the SSC/TK attunements, which were difficult barriers for all of the guilds on our server, which was not hardcore.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
    I can't say which is the right model for "today's" WoW. I will admit that I loved the progression environment of TBC, where you had some guilds working on X raid, some on Y raid, and then the elite guilds working on the bleeding edge Z raids. The progression was more true to the character back then. You knew a character in T6 gear had also completed T4 and T5. Today, you have no ****ing clue because there are too many ways for characters to catch up if they miss a tier.

    Yes and no. Part of the raiding issue with TBC was that the difficulty level scaled way beyond the capabilities of your average players. Blizzard addressed this by giving roles more options for all situations. Healers gained MORE healing abilities (more aoe, more smart healing, more hots, etc). Tanks got better aggro generation abilities (which was a HUGE problem in Vanilla and TBC). And DPS were given better means of regenerating their ability resources. If TBC was suddenly re-introduced as the next expansion with the exact same format and difficulty, I am confident that most guilds would do far better given today's abilities.
    And yet said bleeding edge raids still stacked 8-9 shaman as a healing core. This wasn't an exception. You stacked shaman or you didn't progress.
    Different today perhaps but that doesn't change what it was back then. But that wasn't even the main issue. You had to actually kill Brutallus which was the initial gear check (that's assuming you could get enough competent people to kill the first boss).

    Mechanics are still mechanics. One person could wipe the raid fairly easy on any boss in Sunwell, classes having more abilities doesn't change having that one idiot blow up the entire raid. I don't consider t4 or t5 TBC content, it was trivial... Hyjal/BT were also a joke comparatively but still had plenty of retard checks. Back then it was Sunwell or GTFO. Pretty sure that raid destroyed more guilds than anything before or after ever could (ok maybe the original Naxx would beg to differ).

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I dunno if that wasn't actually part of the appeal.

    When the only difference between the best players and the worst players is time they put in, everyone has something to strive for. When you are skill capped, your progression is over. Small example - I personally can just about play well enough to do heroics, with a bit of gear and if people don't mind me failing a fair bit. After nearly a decade of playing on and off, and with my age now pushing 40, it's unlikely i'm going to get any better and in fact it's likely i'll get a lot worse over time.

    In a "time in = rewards" world all i need to have is some extended time off work and some buddies who also had the same time to spend playing wow to be at the top level. As things stand in a skill based world where I also need a skilled group of players around me, the top level is de facto forever beyond my reach. If I cared about being the best I'd have long since moved on due to unattainability.
    At that point I would question why someone is even playing a game though. If you're pushing for skill to not be a factor and time be the only requirement for rewards, why not just load up ProgressQuest?

  4. #524
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    At that point I would question why someone is even playing a game though. If you're pushing for skill to not be a factor and time be the only requirement for rewards, why not just load up ProgressQuest?
    I'm not pushing for skill to be removed as a factor, I distinctly said I don't mind!

    I just said that things being grindy rather than skill based will have appealed to many players. If you want fast twitch uber co-ordinated team gaming you can play an FPS, after all.
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