Raid *Leader* Awareness

[Dasani]

Let your numbers speak for themselves.

If your GM forces you to switch talents (oh the humanity!) show him the DPS loss from it. And if you can't provide proof it's a dps loss, then he was right in the first place.

Raid leader is only going to tell you to do something they think will improve your performance, if you can show one talent is better they aren't gonna say shit about it as long as you are doing your job at the level required of you.

If rune of power is the best talent, you should take it and use it if you expect to do any raiding of any seriousness. You may not like it, but not all classes have to be liked. Personally I find mages, warlocks, shadow priests, and balance druids to be profoundly boring and uninteresting to play.

[Sonrisa]

1) Yes bad information for pretty much every spec is abundant on the net.
2) As a RL I have no trouble seeing when someone is not performing up to par. Also you have to take into consideration that some people are simply not quite as skilled at the game as others and there will be differences. Especially with how out of whack numbers are due to stat inflation, the differences are even bigger. This usually means one or several of the following although it isn't an absolute list: interrupting casts/straight up not casting for extended periods, bad rotation priority, bad uptime of buffs/debuffs, bad CD alignment or bad opener, bad gear configuration, bad pet control, excedenly conservative play in order to not fuck up, not understanding a fundamental part of a given fight. Also most people have REALLY BAD UI, with nothing to help them do their rotation better.
3) There is a huge amount of information on this game on the net, looking for the right/correct sources does take some time and can prove challenging to filter through all the missinformed bullshit. However there are 3 tools that simply dont lie: you have armory, raidbots, and worldoflogs/warcraftlogs which are more than enough to know how to emulate the top performing players for any given spec.

Also you have to use your brain because not every talent works for every one. When I started to playing my mage alt, a guildy recomended PoM as the DPS increasing talent, his argument being that if you have to move you either blink, use a proc instant cast or get healed through. I came to realize that I'd rather have the extra mobility from Floes (I'm talking Frost spec here), and I believe it is a DPS increase over PoM on a lot of fights.

EDIT: Also when I play my alt mage I usually out dps people 10-15 ilvls higher than me on PuGs because they just don't play optimally, I'd say most people in normal only or just a few heroic guilds perform well under their gears true potential. I'd wager most raid leaders look at their raids gear, with inflated ilvls due to upgrades, and can't help but feel they are well over the intended ilvl to defeat the boss, but just can't seem to do it because their numbers aren't quite there. That leads them to look for improvements on the people performing the worst on their raids.

[Hottage]

This is one of the reasons I don't really like being a raid leader any more, while I'm proficient enough at my own class and encounters, I cannot objectively judge how well the rest of the raid is performing their roles. It makes it very stressful.

[announced]

most 14/14 h. encounters are about surviving the fight. not dps. unless its some key element in the fight that needs to die instantly i wouldnt worry about it.

as a destro lock main, sometimes i feel like i could do more dmg if i was aff, but i hate dealing with dot timers n shit so its w/e. destro may be simple but its fun too

honestly, im not sure why some raid leaders have become stupid. my GM in Sarg US is just thrilled if everyone is alive at the end of an encounter, or near the end.
he always says dead dps= no dps
its true for blackfuse/klaxxi for sure.

[Deleted]

In an ideal world all of our RL would being knowledgeable of the full 11 class spread we have, but unfortunately most people can't be arsed learning

[Deleted]

First of all, the topic you discuss isn't raid leader awareness because that refers to the awareness in a fight ie. executing it correctly, not standing in the shit. Its raid leader class knowledge you are discussing.

This is one of the reasons I don't really like being a raid leader any more, while I'm proficient enough at my own class and encounters, I cannot objectively judge how well the rest of the raid is performing their roles. It makes it very stressful.

In an ideal world all of our RL would being knowledgeable of the full 11 class spread we have, but unfortunately most people can't be arsed learning

We have role leaders. Each role leader is supposed to have at least a basic class knowledge of every spec of that role. If they don't, they can learn. Learning is good, it prevents you from getting an old fart who only knows about 10 years ago with rose-tinted classes ("mage in vanilla was teh best cuz blabla"). If they refuse to look into and refuse to learn they should be replaced because its part of their job description. I don't see knowing about every passive part of a requirement, but again not wanting to learn about such a passive warrants the title bad role leader.

What this hunter was doing was he was trying to make his mage improve in performance. He was doing the right thing, but his opinion was incorrect since he was factually wrong. That's OK, but he needs to be (kindly) told he was wrong, and then you just move on. You could say he shouldn't have opened his mouth before he was sure. I say, that depends on factors: how serious is your guild (if you're still progressing -> likely very casual), what tone was it said in?, was it said in private or in public?, and is this fellow making this mistake more often that he demands the wrong thing? Since it was a PM to you and not to his mage it looks like he's consulting an expert, a great thing to do from a raid/class/role leader. At this point of the discussion I am rather curious why the hunter decided to look into said mage in the first place.

Most of the time when an officer (class/role/raid leader) tells a member to do X its about something far less material, and more subjective. For example, "do more DPS" (which is directly what Raidbots would suggest) is such an inherently vague and lazy statement from a raid leader I would never take it serious, on any of my characters in any kind of environment even if its the pope who says it. Barring slackersparadise (LFR, where I haven't been since half a year or so) I always try to do more DPS, while also focusing on survival and the raid mechanics. Moreover, the suggestion (among others) can be detrimental to your ability to kill the boss, even on farm. If an arcane mage is padding and tunneling instead of target switching that can pose problems. If a frost mage is doing utility like Deep Freeze, Counterspell, and Ring of Frost, or playing frost for these reasons where arcane does more then that is a DPS loss. Not every player cares about their DPS in the sense they must do more, harming the raid in the process. That is different from a player who doesn't care about their DPS regardless of any factor; that's a slacker.

Now, to answer OP's questions:

So a couple questions directed at a couple audiences:
1) As a non-mage, do you feel your class has this problem too?

Well I am my own role leader, but yes, happens every once in a while. I kindly explain people why they are wrong and vice versa has happened as well. I rather see it happen, than that everyone is too scared to open their mouth learning about other people's classes, utility, and ability because they might be wrong about something, or because some special person (like a diva or autistic) can't handle criticism. Discussion is a great way to improve your class knowledge, but like I hinted (gee almost wrote hunted) it depends how they say things, in what manner. Some people have no social skills whatsoever, like that tank with Asperger's who wants to have the whole fight going his own way cause he's a control freak. That is not the type of guy you want to have involved in an open discussion like this, and perhaps its better to have a chat in a small group. Whispers work well, they contain less emotion than voice chat.

2) Raid leaders, do you try to filter through the BS, or do you latch on to any idea you hear as to why X is doing Y less DPS?

First I look at who's saying it. I have a rough picture of my player's knowledge of other class because I know what they're interested in, what they main, what alts they have, and how good they look into their own as well as other classes in depth. With a new person, I don't have much of a picture yet though. Second, if I would want someone to do more DPS I would probably formulate it like "could you do more damage?" or if I feel more certain about being right "why is your damage only X?" By stating it as a question, I follow the person I direct to to fill, provoking an answer. If its a trial and he's giving bullshit reasons then that is not a good impression. Without further note, if I ask something and I don't get a reply I assume its getting fixed. Now, if the answer contains statements which I can factually check and I consider it important I would check the logs to verify. If its a trial, I will certainly do that, but perhaps after the raid which is when I always do log analysis.

3) Would you guys like to see a Blizzard developer watercooler acknowledge some of these points to help clear up confusion?

No, pointless, its part of the fun to learn about other classes and like someone else said the mystery around it with the possibility of the community being wrong is a fun element because it stimulates theorycrafting and discussion instead of handholding cookiecutters. If you know everything about every class in detail the game becomes boring.

[Bonsaii]

This is a discussion that comes up with mages a lot because of the ridiculous amounts of misinformation regarding our specs and talents. I find from all the mages I help that they are often given incredibly bizarre orders from their raid leaders. Hell, I had a raid leader of a 8/14H 10 man guild PM me asking me if there was a way his guild's frost mage could track his icicles because he's losing 50k DPS... I'm like "icicles fire automatically who would ever say that." His reply: "Our hunter analyzed his logs and said he lost 50k dps because he didn't fire his icicles." WTF?!

So a couple questions directed at a couple audiences:
1) As a non-mage, do you feel your class has this problem too?
2) Raid leaders, do you try to filter through the BS, or do you latch on to any idea you hear as to why X is doing Y less DPS?
3) Would you guys like to see a Blizzard developer watercooler acknowledge some of these points to help clear up confusion?

Already in the mage forums, mages are in a scared state and filled with anxiety about WoD. Because a majority of us HATE Rune of Power and are terrified that even if it isn't the best talent, it might be "perceived" as the best talent, therefore become mandated. Here are my thoughts on the matter:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post26758052

My strategy as a leader for years has been to focus on results only. I don't really care how conventional or theoretically optimal something is. If the player yields results, I don't hassle them to change.

So what's going on here, why have raid leaders in MoP made unusual, drastic, and often completely misguided demands on DPS, hoping to get better results?

As a raid leader, I personally recognize my inability to know everything about every class. I therefore delegate to others on classes I don't know very well. However, if a raider is struggling and I attempt to work with them, I will put some time into learning that class, just to help them.
In my guild right now, we have officially a healing lead and a raid leader. Unofficially we have a player of each class who we can rely on to judge applicants and help anyone who's struggling. We also have a few melee I know will do the right thing during a fight who can help anchor that group, while I personally handle our ranged. Our tanks are good enough that they handle themselves.

I think this is a much larger issue in a ten man situation, because you won't typically have a player who is good at a given class to help stragglers.

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Is there anyone who doesn't hate RoP? I stopped playing my mage alt because of it

They're all playing shadow priest. Because at least then you don't have to put down the rune.

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In an ideal world all of our RL would being knowledgeable of the full 11 class spread we have, but unfortunately most people can't be arsed learning

In an ideal world, raider leaders wouldn't need to do that research and the Raiders should do it on their own.
Why should I do the research they should have done, just to teach them it.

[Senen]

So a couple questions directed at a couple audiences:
1) As a non-mage, do you feel your class has this problem too?
2) Raid leaders, do you try to filter through the BS, or do you latch on to any idea you hear as to why X is doing Y less DPS?
3) Would you guys like to see a Blizzard developer watercooler acknowledge some of these points to help clear up confusion?

1) Definitely. Echo chamber effect, someone says something on internet and if he has enough audience, you'll eventually have people repeat this even if it's complete BS.
2) I usually check informations before giving them to my guildies. If I cba or don't have time, I tell them something like "I've seen a guy saying ... on internet, that looks like a good idea, maybe we/you could try that" and then I listen to what they have to say about it.
3) Yes and no. People should stop focusing on "some blue/gm told that" because it's often used as a perfect argument even if the statement is no longer true or contained a mistake.

[cFortyfive]

My strategy as a leader for years has been to focus on results only. I don't really care how conventional or theoretically optimal something is. If the player yields results, I don't hassle them to change.

So what's going on here, why have raid leaders in MoP made unusual, drastic, and often completely misguided demands on DPS, hoping to get better results?

I honestly fail to see how lacking raidleads/officers/players are a mop specific phenomenon but well.
Personally while results are obviously important I don't really see what's wrong with asking if there wasn't a way to do things better.
Obviously not like in the given example.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

1. Yes, all the time. But I just tell them that I'm the guy who's knows how to play the class because I learned through experience; trial and error.

2. My solution: just let my raid members prove that they know thier class. If they got a gold medal achievement in the proving grounds, then they can come. I don't ask questions about their class c.ompetency because they already proved it.

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3) Yes and no. People should stop focusing on "some blue/gm told that" because it's often used as a perfect argument even if the statement is no longer true or contained a mistake.

Pretty much this.

[Imnick]

I honestly think a Blizzard sanctioned "Use X talent when Y, Use Z talent when A" post would just make this more frequent. If you deviated from it for niche encounters people would be demanding to know why and then linking you to it.

[willemh]

Being a raid leader of a 25man guild (13/14 hc) myself I believe leaving everything to my raiders own responsibility is not the way to go, at least not at the level we play. The fact we are 13/14HC and not 14/14HC shows our players arn't all playing their classes optimal, because if they would we would have killed Garrosh before Method did. Keeping this in mind, it’s not realistic to assume players to sort their own stuff. The way I see it you can go two ways from here. Either you replace any player that performs suboptimal, this has proven extremely hard, veteran players that play optimal are extremely hard to find, and those looking for a guild usually get picked by a higher progressed guild. The other option you have is to create an environment in which you try to improve your players. This can be done by encouraging your players to give feedback to eachother, and to you. When you create and environment like this you also accept the fact false feedback will be given, because nobody knows everything. Looking at myself I have been raidleading since halfway TBC and learned allot about many classes in all those years, but with so many specs around and theorycrafting changing every few weeks even I make false assumptions sometimes.

So to answer your question, an environment where you try to improve your players is far preferred over an environment where you assume your players will improve themselves. Because this really isn’t realistic at any level below the top 50 world in my experience. False assumptions/conclusions can’t be avoided, because nobody knows everything, nor has the time to deeply investigate 40 specs every 2-3 weeks.