The Irish Independence Cause versus the British Occupation - Who did you support?

[Deleted]

Does it honestly matter? In the grand scope of life, people waste there time with petty little things like this. Enjoy what life you have. Its all shite anyway

[Austilias]

What "British Occupation" are you talking about? Do you perhaps refer to the descendants of families who have been here for centuries? Then again, given the thread's title ("Independence" vs "Occupation"), it's clear where your biases lie. I'll refute your argument in two points however;

1) At what point does a population/demographic segment cease to become an 'Occupier'? Despite Northern Ireland having existed as a legal/sovereign state for what will soon be 100 years, its population has inhabited the six counties that comprise Northern Ireland since at least the 17th century. If you deem Northern Ireland to be 'occupied', then by default you must also deem nations such as the United States of America to also be occupied.

2) The argument that Northern Ireland is somehow 'occupied' is specious at best. The British presence in Northern Ireland during the troubles was not an 'invasion' by any means. Indeed, it was because the Northern Irish populace pleaded with the British Government for aid/help with regard to the IRA threat (who killed many more civilians and Nationalists/Republicans, than the British Army or Loyalist paramilitaries; not that I support the latter), that the British Government stationed/dispatched the British Army to Northern Ireland in the first place.

The fact is that the 'Irish Unification' argument is not as altruistic or benevolent as its advocates like to suggest. Those who deem Northern Ireland to be some sort of 'artificial' country that is not real, must also apply the same argument to many other nations; such as the 30+ countries that have been created since 1990, including the very relevant Ukraine that has recently been in the news. The destruction of the Northern Irish border, and thus the Northern Irish state/country, would also entail the destruction of a culture/traditions and numerous other things that make us distinct from our southern, Irish neighbours.

[Bassch]

I hear this every couple of weeks and it's getting fairly annoying to be fair. It happened ages ago, but people looking for an arguement just bring it up. Please just leave the past where it is :P.

Personally I'd vote for Irish freedom, because hey, I'm Irish. That doesn't mean that I'm saying that the IRA were right. Both groups involved were in the wrong, but hey, that's how things happened before.

But in all honesty, it's better for the Republic of Ireland to not have Northern Ireland with us. RoI can barely handle itself atm, so no point dragging more down with us.

[Austilias]

But in all honesty, it's better for the Republic of Ireland to not have Northern Ireland with us. RoI can barely handle itself atm, so no point dragging more down with us.

Most people I speak to express either that opinion or something similar to it. Even if there is a rise in support for Nationalist/Republican parties, support for Irish Unity (even among Nationalists/Republicans/Catholics) is at an all time low. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, Northern Ireland has existed for far too long for the prospect of Irish Unity to even be entertained to a serious degree. Since 1990 alone, more then 30 countries have come into existence; whose existence is never questioned in the same way as Northern Ireland's, despite the latter having existed legally/constitutionally for almost a century, and in general sense for several centuries.

[Deleted]

Being from the republic of Ireland I can tell you that even to this day their are quite a few people of all ages that are brought to to respect the struggle of the IRA. Now personally I do not condone violence but in a war for Independence sadly the rules tend to be thrown out the window by both sides.

I agree though with UncleSilas can we please close this thread as the information is just not correct.

No they were terrorists. There is no room for discussion on this, whatever side you are on with regards to the underlying issue, people who plant bombs designed to kill civilians are terrorists and anyone who does not 100% condemn them for that is a shit.

Lol, aparantly my post got infracted for calling the op either stupid or ignorant....but a thread labelling terrorists as freedom fighters, which twists history, is blatantly biassed and incorrect, and shows a humongous amount of disrespect to those that lost loved ones in the troubles due to those terrorists is ok with MMO champ. Nice to see the standards here.
Next lets create a thread about how great the 911 hijackers were and see how that goes down shall we? or maybe we can find a child molester to honor as that seams to be the standard that is acceptable round here.
Makes me sick to be honest.

[Deleted]

Most people I speak to express either that opinion or something similar to it. Even if there is a rise in support for Nationalist/Republican parties, support for Irish Unity (even among Nationalists/Republicans/Catholics) is at an all time low. For the reasons I mentioned earlier, Northern Ireland has existed for far too long for the prospect of Irish Unity to even be entertained to a serious degree. Since 1990 alone, more then 30 countries have come into existence; whose existence is never questioned in the same way as Northern Ireland's, despite the latter having existed legally/constitutionally for almost a century, and in general sense for several centuries.

Also your economy is quite shagged, no point in adding more fuel to the fire which is the RoI.

That said, you've much more interesting accents.

- - - Updated - - -

No they were terrorists. There is no room for discussion on this, whatever side you are on with regards to the underlying issue, people who plant bombs designed to kill civilians are terrorists and anyone who does not 100% condemn them for that is a shit.

Yup, terrorist scumbags who ran protection rings and drug trafficking. They all deserve solitary for the rest of their natural lives.

[RoryTee]

No they were terrorists. There is no room for discussion on this, whatever side you are on with regards to the underlying issue, people who plant bombs designed to kill civilians are terrorists and anyone who does not 100% condemn them for that is a shit.

Yet the British army and RUC continued to create these terrorists through the indiscriminate tactics they used against catholic civilians.

[Deleted]

Yet the British army and RUC continued to create these terrorists through the indiscriminate tactics they used against catholic civilians.

Both sides did terrible things, it does not excuse anyone.

[Deleted]

Glad to know that TheGravemind knowledge of the British Isles is as good as his knowledge of the Middle East and the rest of Europe.

The guys got Malcom X as his profile, did you really expect him to post anything well thought out/knowledgeable?

[Deleted]

Yet the British army and RUC continued to create these terrorists through the indiscriminate tactics they used against catholic civilians.

They were terrorists, complete scum of the earth. The British were cruel, and hateful, but the IRA didn't assist in brining sanity to the region.

[RoryTee]

They were terrorists, complete scum of the earth. The British were cruel, and hateful, but the IRA didn't assist in brining sanity to the region.

What I'm trying to get at is that the British created the situation and should be held as responsible as any other side for the deaths incurred in the troubles.

[Xanjori]

What I'm trying to get at is that the British created the situation and should be held as responsible as any other side for the deaths incurred in the troubles.

No, what you do is your own responsibility, saying that it's someone else's fault is a complete crock of shit. The British did bad things, that doesn't ever justify blowing up pubs full of innocent people.

[Deleted]

What I'm trying to get at is that the British created the situation and should be held as responsible as any other side for the deaths incurred in the troubles.

No. I'm sorry, but no. If you post a poll labelling terrorists as "freedom fighters", that is totally 100% unacceptable. I'm shocked MMO champ is ok with it, a mod has been to this thread and aparantly condones it. Which shows you how morally bankrupt MMO champ is.

Yes there were actions the brittish police did which were wrong. and no one is condoning that. But lets be clear about this, condoning the IRA or their actions is equivalent to condoning the 911 hijackers....

[Deleted]

What I'm trying to get at is that the British created the situation and should be held as responsible as any other side for the deaths incurred in the troubles.

Everyone has already agreed both sides were at fault.

Your crap trying to justify their existence isn't appreciated. By your logic almost all current terrorist organisations are justified in their activities.

[RoryTee]

Everyone has already agreed both sides were at fault.

Your crap trying to justify their existence isn't appreciated. By your logic almost all current terrorist organisations are justified in their activities.

I don't condone any of the IRA's methods in furthering there political views but when you do stuff like this ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

You breed hatred and terrorism.

[Deleted]

I don't condone any of the IRA's methods in furthering there political views but when you do stuff like this ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

You breed hatred and terrorism.

Take your fingers out.

You are either:
a) Condoning the IRA
b) Claiming the British got what they deserved

If you can't see why, stop trying to make a point.

[Austilias]

Also your economy is quite shagged, no point in adding more fuel to the fire which is the RoI.

Sadly yes; our economy is approximately 60% Public Sector/Parliament Hand-Out dependent. Not helped by the fact that all but two parties (TUV/UKIPNI) are in favour of our continued EU membership; and in turn, in favour of us being further dependent on the monetary hand-outs of yet another governing organisation.

That said, you've much more interesting accents.

Most of the Northern Irish accents I can't stand. My own is the Antrim accent; which is probably the more neutral/clear of them all. My ex said it made me sound like a news reader; which is certainly a job I wouldn't mind nowadays.

[RoryTee]

Take your fingers out.

You are either:
a) Condoning the IRA
b) Claiming the British got what they deserved

If you can't see why, stop trying to make a point.

The British Army , RUC , UDA , UVF , IRA and whoever the fuck was claiming to be fighting for there country at the time deserved what they got.

Not innocent civilians.

[Austilias]

The British Army , RUC , UDA , UVF , IRA and whoever the fuck was claiming to be fighting for there country at the time deserved what they got.

Not innocent civilians.

By this logic, the IRA et al also deserved what they got.

Let's not forget the IRA killed both more civilians and more of their own supporters, than either the British Army, RUC and other paramilitary forces.

[RoryTee]

By this logic, the IRA et al also deserved what they got.

Let's not forget the IRA killed both more civilians and more of their own supporters, than either the British Army, RUC and other paramilitary forces.

I thought I mentioned the IRA in my post saying they deserved what they got also?