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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Miggzen View Post
    I blame queue's.
    We can queue for everything. Now we don't really have to behave because if get kicked we just queue again. Back in the day we would have wasted hours if we got kicked.

    Different times.
    Not only that but if you did it to enough groups word got around. Blacklist threads were started on the forums for all kinds of offenses and if you were a dick to enough people you couldn't do anything. Even if people just didn't like your attitude or harassment in general chat, that could hinder you. And before server transfers, that meant rerolling in a game that took around 20 days played to hit max level.

    There used to be a very strong incentive to not only be nice but help others out and make a good name for your character and make lots of friends on your server. This has slowly declined over the years to the point of non existence. When you got a group together and it went well people usually added each other to their friends list to find again next time they were around. In vanilla wow I had tons of people on my friends list and knew most of the active max level players on my server. There was drama and what not but it was beneficial to be friends with lots of people if you wanted to be successful. Even had friends from the opposite faction, the ones I saw in pvp all the time. There is no incentive to make friends anymore, outside of normal/heroic raids which is a very small subset of the total population. On top of that professions actually had things people wanted to craft with recipes that were difficult to obtain, might only be one or two on a server with an enchant or pattern. Sometimes they were on the opposite faction. There were lists of who could make what on the forums as well. The game was 1000x more social then.

    Even if many people only care about themselves, if you make it beneficial to them to help other gamers then they will. If you think that things haven't changed since vanilla/BC days you either didn't play then or were not paying attention.

    Convenience for community is the trade off. Yes you get to see all the content but you don't have to make friends to do it now. I really don't mind the easier difficulty levels. I think that is a plus but all these queue systems would be better in a game that had far fewer players. Merge low population realms to allow enough players on a server so that groups are formed easily and you won't need the system anymore. They should also allow people to be in multiple guids to facilitate that social aspect. Maybe not 10 different but at least 3.

  2. #22
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Yup, convenience has removed the chance to socialise. Everything is just automated.
    Just the finding a group, not the actual running a dungeon,

    vanilla-tbc- start of wotlk = spend 2 hours finding a group, complete dungeon without speaking to anyone

    ICC onwards = spend 10seconds finding a group, complete a dungeon without speaking to anyone

    I know which i would choose, i barely noticed a difference to how much random strangers socialize in dungeons...


    Also yeah i think it's pretty funny how people are so adamant that these features ruined peoples ability to talk to others yet i very rarely see people like that just stop and talk to strangers 0o I've met tons of weird and interesting people outside sw/ goldshire...

    For example i don't have an active account so used my trial i logged in ran to the first person i saw and said hi...
    If i wished i could carry this conversation on further...
    Last edited by Frozenbeef; 2014-04-30 at 09:15 PM.

  3. #23
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Yes, this is where I also see the problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because you don't have consequences anymore. Be a constant asshole before LFD/LFR and people remembered your name on the server.

    There never was any. I watched the same ninja looter form a raid every week from trade chat. The whole time he is forming a group people would talk about him ninja looting.


    He never had a problem getting a group.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    See, I remember the opposite. I remember people getting put on blacklist websites and people telling GMs about the asshole in their Guild. Back then Guilds didn't even want people like that in there with them, they valued their reputation. Nowadays Guilds are just here so we level them to 25 for the perks. Few Gullds actually care about the people they have in them.
    A few guilds might have shunned him sure. Meanwhile there are still 100-1000 of other players on your sever that wouldn't care. You just didn't see it.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by feellucky View Post
    Not only that but if you did it to enough groups word got around. Blacklist threads were started on the forums for all kinds of offenses and if you were a dick to enough people you couldn't do anything. Even if people just didn't like your attitude or harassment in general chat, that could hinder you. And before server transfers, that meant rerolling in a game that took around 20 days played to hit max level.
    Total fairytale. The only way you could ever get "blacklisted" and singled out from the game is when you were one of those endgame raiding guys, back when every server had 3-4 full-blown raiding guilds you depended on if you wanted to raid. If you happened to "misbehave" in the eyes of that select little bunch, you'd have hard time rochading through the few raiding guilds that your realm had to offer. The whole other 20k-something people on any given realm never gave a damn. No one ever cared about any stupid trade channel shaming of "ninja looters" or whatever you thought you needed to lament over in front of the big audience. Also, I wonder what forums and "blacklist threads" you're actually referring to - it sure wasn't the official realm threads, as naming and shaming was against Blizzards forum rules since day one.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Furthermore, people only behave the way they do because social norms and personal morals. Social norms dont exist when you strip the social aspect from the game.
    And if they're only behaving because of social norms, why would I want to work with them in the first place?

  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    It wasn't about the amount - you didn't have to see it happening. People just valued their reputation allot more back then and that in itself will make people not want to be douche canoes to others.


    Oh I'll agree some people cared. Some people still care, but the ones that didn't were rarely affected by those that did.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    People were jerks before LFD and people are jerks now. The difference is before LFD if you were a bad person, constantly trolling your dungeon party you would get kicked, got blacklisted and not invited anymore. And the biggest thing - you would lose 1h of your game time just because you were an idiot. Now, if you had half a brain you would realize that maybe it's a good idea to be friendly and try to work with your team mates.
    After LFD if you were a jerk, you would get kicked, got blacklisted and not invited anymore. But this time around you lose nothing - you just hit that queue button and continue to be an asshole.

  9. #29
    I remember on my old server on Ursin back during Vanilla, when BWL barely came out, a major Horde guild's (lets be honest, it was the only real endgame guild at all on that server) druid ninjaed Felstriker, widely sought after if only for purple and damage and prestige in a PuG and there was a huge shitstorm about it.

    What happened?

    Entire guild laughed, told everyone to blow off, and nothing of consequence happened to the Druid. This misconception that everyone was concerned about their reputation is... well a misconception.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  10. #30
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    Yeah Im calling you out on this one mate, try remembering an Uldaman run without any communication. Took an effort to actually make your way there. Most of the dungeons required you to discuss stuff and be a little patient, nowadays I can zerg a whole HC with my hunter and a turtle by myself with semi-decent gear.
    That's because stats were none existent until 60 making the dungeons significantly harder(and designed for multiple people not to be soloed (eg not being able to solo uldamun at level 60 as it required multiple people to activate the pedestals) , and currently those mop dungeons are designed for 5.0 new players in greens not epic geared 5.4 people they are so different in power levels they are on different planets that's why we are getting the squish >.< LFG didn't add/remove the socolise thing, making the dungeons much easier did...

    For example in cata 4.0 people had to talk more in order to CC/ discuss strategy that wasn't because of LFG but because of the difficulty of the dungeons...

  11. #31
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Yes, exactly. Jerks have always been in the game, but back before LFD/LFR the jerks had to learn quickly that they weren't going to get anywhere in the game if they were an asshole. Nowadays the jerks continue to be jerks because the consequences for being a jerk are gone.
    /kick, then they join another and if they continue to act out then another /kick.. many people don't act kindly to a holes in wow, not at low levels or high levels...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempeste View Post
    No, it was never better in the "old days"
    Actually, it was. Initially, WoW attracted gamers who played the game solely because they wanted to play with *gasp* other people, whether it was just to see other people in the game or to work in a coordinated team. The old world was very, very different. You had to rely on pugs for a lot quests and in some cases entire areas, and it was actually difficult to level up without meeting people. It was really unusual for a dungeon group to not talk at all- then again, many of us started playing because we wanted to take down a dungeon with other people. If you didn't want to do that- meet people, work together, coordinate, shoot the shit- you very quickly realized that this probably wasn't your game. Can't accept advice, or-for whatever reason- ask questions? You didn't last very long.

    And maybe it was a sign of the newness of the game, but there also weren't that many horde-alliance crossovers yet (I want to say none, but I'm pretty sure it was only actually forbidden on PvP realms) and that actually gave the factions a sense of solidarity. You had something in common with your faction. You actually felt like you were on a side. That's gone, now. I'm just as likely to get screwed out of something by a horde player as I am an Alliance one, and the kicker is they might as well be alliance when it comes to communication- few people talk or interact "out in the wild" except for the rare troll (whispering "U MAD FAGGOT" after he jacks your node/kill/whatever). Horde had it's own identity back then, as simple as it was ("the ugly faction! with shamans! woot").

    Players are a little more hostile in-game now. The comraderie that you used to have with your faction is now reserved for your guild, if that. Blizzard re-designed their leveling to allow players who really don't like other people and don't want to play with other people to reach max level without having to work with others; basically they (unintentionally, I hope) opened up the game to a whole group of gamers for whom you (and everyone else in game) are not the reason they are playing an MMO, instead you (and everyone else) are either a necessary-yet-unwanted "evil" or an obstacle in the way of their points/gear/purples/whatever. Of course that's going to breed shitty attitudes, and those shitty attitudes are going to spread as negative experiences stack up.

    Fuck yes the game's players have changed. We used to give people (light-hearted) shit for not talking in group, then I come back in Cata and use the LFG and no one says a single word the entire run. How creepy is that shit?! And it's been like that ever since. Look, if you don't want to deal with other people and your sole reason for playing an MMO is 1. because it's popular and 2. So you can show off your accomplishments to the people you don't like, then you have issues and honestly Blizzard needs to bring back some of those old barriers to discourage you from playing. People who flat-out don't like other people in general are part of what's wrong with this game, and Blizzard needs to stop making end-game so accessible to them. People like to talk about how shitty and unbalanced the game was back in vanilla/BC... maybe, but we had a lot of fun anyways, because we were playing with people who wanted to play with us and be in a group, as opposed to achievement-crazy anti-social CoD refugees who are only here because they saw a WoW commercial right before they got banned from their LIVE account. You know something's wrong when it was more fun wiping to a dungeon boss in BC than it is to one-shot an entire dungeon in record time in MoP. And that is entirely due to the players.

    I dunno, I really doubt it will ever change back; for whatever reason, Blizzard has decided it's less a social game and more a competitive sport or some shit.
    Last edited by Alternategray; 2014-04-30 at 09:41 PM.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    No. People are assholes because the system allows them to.
    The downfall of the sense of community happened the moment Blizzard started selling name changes and server transfers services, back in TBC.
    People were allowed to escape their bad server rep, if the price was paid.

    BG's queueing and LFG, and later on LFR, only made the situation worse.
    Oh, and don't make me start rambling on the LFG kick system...

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Yes, exactly. Jerks have always been in the game, but back before LFD/LFR the jerks had to learn quickly that they weren't going to get anywhere in the game if they were an asshole. Nowadays the jerks continue to be jerks because the consequences for being a jerk are gone.

    They made it just as far as you if not farther. It was just with other people.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiift View Post
    Social and legal reprimande is what keeps people from being twats. WoW has only a bit of legal reprimande. Social reprimande is irrelevant. People should get a honour system of sorts. Like riot uses, its proven to work. They need a sociale exclusion incentive to behave.

    50 reports? No more LFD for a week.
    100x reporting for flaming? [Insert Name] The Asshole title enforced for a month
    20x kicked out of BG? -50% honour gain 2 weeks.

    etc.
    ^ this guy gets it.

    Also, i recommend the flippable table that can be purchased in half hill. Do not flip real tables.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempeste View Post
    Because WoW is usually most peoples' first online gaming experience. They don't understand that that is just generally how people are in online games, and on the internet in general, in an anonymous and not face to face setting. No, it was never better in the "old days", you just dealt with random people a lot less, so people had reputations and such. But even then, the crappy people still existed in droves. That's just kind of how online gaming is.

    It's not really an excuse for crappy behavior, but when you've playing online games long enough you just sort of come to accept it and learn to ignore it and not let it get to you. From what I've noticed, there seems to be a lot of people who just haven't been into online gaming for long enough to understand this. Sure report them if they have done something terrible or whathaveyou, but if some guy is crap talking about your mom in Trade chat, you don't need to flip a table over it. I've seen people do and say crappy things all the time, in many games, not just WoW, but I've never got seriously angry over it. They are a random person on the internet, why would I?

    I'm getting pretty sick of hearing all the time about how WoW's community will kill the game or something, or how it is declining because some guy ninja'd a level 50 blue item from you in a low level dungeon. Holy crap just get over it already.
    Yay finally an expert... Out of a billion others. You smell like a guy who came after the LFD and LFR was implemented.
    What i believe is that when you have no relation to those you have to work with and need something off of each other cooperation wise, then people gets frustrated. Back before the cross realm and random dungeons, it had a consequence when you behaved badly. Now you can act horribly without any repercussion.

    So, when i think back to vanilla, tbc and Wotlk before LFD; Yes, i found a lot more friends back then on my server, and yes, generally people behaved nicely including myself. And i kind of feel that the servers has become more empty even though we meet through the LFD. People are together, but we could not get further apart because we have no relation.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    It all boils down to this. If you need team effort to overcome challenge you will either learn to play as team or you will fail. If you don't need team effort to overcome challenge then you will not learn anything. Some of my oldest friends in game (and later IRL) I met during questing because I needed their help or they needed mine. Today, you don't need anyone when you level, do dungeons or LFR. And when you played all the time by yourself and try to enter into some organized content it's much easier to fail then before.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    There are games without lfg/lfr with terrible communitys as well as just people on the internet in general...




    Tanks/ healers are drastically OP compared to DPS at low level, it's pretty normal for tanks to be on the top of the dps chart at level 10-60 dungeons then they start evening out



    Kick, the vast majority of groups (leveled from 10-80 *12 times through dungeons) don't like leechers...
    Mate, not my first time around lvling tanks inn LFG. Im...quit a nerd on it, just a habbit off liking tank alts to try the classes out, but rarely ever get max level. Anywho, yes tanks are insane damage, but a DPS thats just remotely active and can AOE some easly does 20-25% group dmg, with me then doing 50-60%, but that is so rare its sad. Ive seen maybe 5 DPS'ere be 20% and this alt is soon 60...really =/

    Kicking I do everytime I can. I've stopped groups completely, and said "No, Im not moving"...etc, causing real drama and slowing my own XP gain down, just cause I didn't want a leecher. Sometimes that dosen't work, or you are unable to kick more, or haft to wait very long.
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  19. #39
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainedrop View Post
    ^ this guy gets it.

    Also, i recommend the flippable table that can be purchased in half hill. Do not flip real tables.
    I think somthing like that would be good..but what stops a random group of people upvoting their own friends / down voting everyone else?...

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    The real reason is LFR/LFD/BGs. Everything can be queued nowdays, so people dont NEED to behave.
    Spot on, nothing else to ba added. You can argue how people are becoming bigger dicks but it's wrong. People were always dicks, it's rules that keep us in line. WoW has almost no rules nowadays.

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