STEM - how early is too early?

[haxartus]

I see 6-7 as 6+(-7).
Maybe there is something wrong with me.

[Annoying]

Prenatally, Imo. Turn on some cosmos whilst pregnant and use osmosis to educate.

But seriously: Primary education is for literacy and numeracy. Ideas like science-lite where the topics and mechanisms are discussed, but with less of the math would be ideal. That leaves maximal time and brain-room for the foundations of math, which become quite important in science. If there was some way to get the basics of math to students faster, you could start doing some actual science that involves a heavier amount of math.

[Spectral]

I started learning math when I was 3. I don't think you can really start too early on teaching people how to think about the world analytically.

[Kuntantee]

You need to understand mathematical logic. For example, in programming you have variables, functions, recursion. You also need to understand the difference between things like n^2 and (n)logn.
I can't imagine someone who has trouble with functions in math being good at programming.

Most good programmers are good at math but high level math is not required to be a good programmer.

[Annoying]

You need to understand mathematical logic. For example, in programming you have variables, functions, recursion. You also need to understand the difference between things like n^2 and (n)logn.
I can't imagine someone who has trouble with functions in math being good at programming.

And tons and tons of linear algebra*.

* - If you do anything with graphics.

[Solarth]

6-7 isn't 1 (I knew what you meant, just jesting.)

How do you know the child won't utilise it ever again? How do you know it won't be his or her go-to method? How do you know that moving from concrete to abstract concepts will be so easy for them? (Hint: it isn't.)

I will reiterate; what is your argument beyond you not personally liking the system? I think it's bloody horrendous too, because it is so slow, but not everyone can do simple arithmetic quickly.

Sorry was trying to talk on the phone, corrected it. I know the child won't use it because they simply wont have the time to draw a timeline for every math problem they have. That is completely ridiculous. The only thing you need to know for any addition or subtracting of whole numbers is actually quite simple, 0-9 are the only factors, you never have to subtract the 316 from the 427, you subtract as I showed before, the 6 from the 7, then then 1 from the 2, then the 3 from the 4, and you have your answer. You don't need to make it more complicated than it is.

Also the numbers are not abstract, if you decide to use a physical object as a representation of those numbers, then the objects are abstract but the numbers are still real.

[Zhangfei]

Sorry was trying to talk on the phone, corrected it. I know the child won't use it because they simply wont have the time to draw a timeline for every math problem they have. That is completely ridiculous. The only thing you need to know for any addition or subtracting of whole numbers is actually quite simple, 0-9 are the only factors, you never have to subtract the 316 from the 427, you subtract as I showed before, the 6 from the 7, then then 1 from the 2, then the 3 from the 4, and you have your answer. You don't need to make it more complicated than it is.

What if you are subtracting 369 from 411? Teach kids negative numbers?

And kids will be given the time to write it all out. The point isn't to make them write it out for the rest of their life, just to show they know what is going on.

[Deleted]

yes schools fail to properly teach math, it's nothing new.. stem needs to be taught from a very early age on imo, like elementary school

[Spraxle]

Not everyone grasps everything the same way. I am really good at logic things or figuring stuff out, but Math is like my Achilles heel.

As someone who is going back to college I hate how they cram stuff down your throat that you won't use a week later. I dunno all of the pointless classes are burning me out. I get no one would take the classes if they weren't required, but that speaks more to changing requirements for the modern world.

[Kuntantee]

Sorry was trying to talk on the phone, corrected it. I know the child won't use it because they simply wont have the time to draw a timeline for every math problem they have. That is completely ridiculous. The only thing you need to know for any addition or subtracting of whole numbers is actually quite simple, 0-9 are the only factors, you never have to subtract the 316 from the 427, you subtract as I showed before, the 6 from the 7, then then 1 from the 2, then the 3 from the 4, and you have your answer. You don't need to make it more complicated than it is.

Here is a perspective from Neuroscience.
Human brain loves unconventional ways. Doctors suggest to circle moving backwards every once in a while to avoid Alzheimer. Different stimuli in human brain activates different neurons. Doing same thing over and over and over again only improves motor neurons (if it's physical). Doing things in conventional and cheap/efficient way is an engineering principle but may not be best option to employ in education.

[haxartus]

What if you are subtracting 369 from 411? Teach kids negative numbers?

I hate when people who are trying to teach me lie to me.
I was first taught that you can't do 369-411. Then I learned I can. Then they told me that I can't calculate the square root of -1. Then I learned I can. They also told me that you can't do 1/0. Then they told me is undefined. And at the end it turns out it's a complex infinity (which is still undefined tho).

[Deleted]

Not everyone grasps everything the same way. I am really good at logic things or figuring stuff out, but Math is like my Achilles heel.

As someone who is going back to college I hate how they cram stuff down your throat that you won't use a week later. I dunno all of the pointless classes are burning me out. I get no one would take the classes if they weren't required, but that speaks more to changing requirements for the modern world.

All knowledge is relational in nature, often mandatory classes seem useless until compound assignments require information from various constituent parts.

[Solarth]

What if you are subtracting 369 from 411? Teach kids negative numbers?

And kids will be given the time to write it all out. The point isn't to make them write it out for the rest of their life, just to show they know what is going on.

You do it the same way my teachers taught our class, you teach them about real mathematical terms, like carrying, and borrowing. I'm not a teacher so I don't on a day to day basis teach kids by any means. If a child needs to learn it that way,(with the number line) then so be it, but there is no way that everyone should learn math that way. It would be the equivalent of me learning how to kill and process the cow just to cook a cheese burger...

[Spectral]

All knowledge is relational in nature, often mandatory classes seem useless until compound assignments require information from various constituent parts.

Also, contrary to popular belief, being versatile does matter in the job market. I'm coming from a research science background and just accepted a job in implementation with a software company. I find it wildly implausible that they've have interest in me if my scientific education had been the research equivalent of a trade school. Learning things - it matters!

[Zhangfei]

You do it the same way my teachers taught our class, you teach them about real mathematical terms, like carrying, and borrowing. I'm not a teacher so I don't on a day to day basis teach kids by any means. If a child needs to learn it that way,(with the number line) then so be it, but there is no way that everyone should learn math that way. It would be the equivalent of me learning how to kill and process the cow just to cook a cheese burger...

As Silas says above (hurray we agree on something as teachers,) all knowledge is relational. Sometimes it is easier for some and harder for others, some people prefer a formula, some people prefer asking "why?" There is nothing wrong with the building blocks being explicitly stated in different ways, because people learn in different ways. What seems blatantly obvious to some may have a point later, or it might not be so blatant to other people.

That is all there is to it. It's just scaffolding for more complicated tasks.

[Garnier Fructis]

I hate when people who are trying to teach me lie to me.
I was first taught that you can't subtract 369 from 411. Then I learned I can. Then they told me that I can't calculate the square root of -1. Then I learned I can. They also told me that you can't do 1/0. Then they told me is undefined. And at the end it turns out it's a complex infinity (which is still undefined tho).

1/0 is only complex infinity in contexts where it's meaningful to define it that way. They didn't lie to you when they told you it was undefined, because any definition you find is specific to some set of assumptions or some subject matter.

As for square root of -1, whether or not that's a lie is totally dependent on context, so unless the teacher is just bad (which is not unlikely in grade school), I'm inclined to think it wasn't really a lie. For instance, if you're calculating the trajectory of a cannonball with air resistance or something and you end up with square root of -1, then it's just wrong because you can't have imaginary trajectories. And if you have a function whose range is the real numbers, nothing which gives you square root -1 can be in the domain of the function.

On a more general note, you guys actually remember how to do these things? Jesus. I don't even remember how to do long division. That's why I have a calculator. "But what if the apocalypse happens and you run out of batteries?" Then I've got bigger problems than long division that need sorting out.

[haxartus]

The funny thing is that I didn't need a calculator for any of my math exams in college.
Of course, physics is a different topic. Even the simplest calculation will take you like 10 minutes without a calculator. You will need a few minutes just to convert everything to SI.