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  1. #1

    Holinka: Rogues not underperforming in PvP

    Rogues are not underperforming in PvP, and are on par with Warriors, Warlocks, Shamans, Mages, and Hunters, according to Holinka:
    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/461918081292316672

    3s Ladder:
    43 Rogues (top is #32)
    -------------
    214 Shamans (top is #6)
    129 Warriors (top is #3)
    96 Hunters (top is #16)
    85 Mages (top is #2)
    81 Warlocks (top is #11)

    Compared to potentially underperforming:
    84 Priests (top is #14)
    45 Shadow Priests (top is #14)
    125 Druids (top is #1)
    62 Monks (top is #4)
    53 Paladins (top is #18)

    Rogue representation is 4.3% at 2200+, but only 3.9% at 2600+, so it's not like the class just has a comparatively high skill cap.

    Rogues also have the 2nd lowest rep on the ladder in 2s and 3s (Warlocks are lowest in 2s, DKs lowest in 3s).

  2. #2
    Goodness. That's honestly pretty absurd.

    In before "There's fewer rogues globally." Yes, there are, and shit like this is exactly why.

  3. #3
    This is coming from the same guy that gave the reason for keeping cloak and dagger was more or less just woundman using it.....
    Last edited by Wow; 2014-05-01 at 10:26 PM.

  4. #4
    I mean, there were like two fucking changes to anything at all for this season: we saw warriors, the dominant dps by a mile, lose an interrupt, and we saw rogues, barely present, lose their defensive peel.

    Then this?


    I think that we are dealing with the world of Blizzard Has Their Own Fucking Internal Metric And Therefore All Logic Is Invalid. They thought rogues were OP last season- a season where it's plenty hard to find a comp, or even a group.

    So by Blizzardcraft, we are somehow aces. Good to know that in some spreadsheet that must not be named, at least, our class is adequately repped in pvp.

  5. #5
    we're not under-performing we're just under-represented and i don't think it has anything to do with the perfs in pvp. other classes just got stuff that used to be rogues only and on the other side rogues didn't change much for a very long time.
    "I win because I'm a ninja. I kill everybody else because they suck ass. To even play a rogue takes an enormous amount of skill beyond what noobs like you could even imagine." Kishkumen, World of Roguecraft 2.

  6. #6
    Rogues were in a decent place in Cata, and most will say they crazy OP but the class was so counterable even when they were good, but MoP gutted them. Why bring a Rogue when a Monk can do it better but with heals! When I was doing arenas you loved Rogue match ups because it was basically a 2v1.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spraxle View Post
    Rogues were in a decent place in Cata, and most will say they crazy OP but the class was so counterable even when they were good, but MoP gutted them. Why bring a Rogue when a Monk can do it better but with heals! When I was doing arenas you loved Rogue match ups because it was basically a 2v1.
    The only time was represent in Cata was Legendary+ vial> Othertime was mid~~
    As for now they aren't that Op>
    Example?
    Playing rogue from the start> PLaying Feral from 4 months ago.
    Simply>?? Ok 2.1rate rogue . 2.4 rate with Feral is @#$!$%

    Playing with rogue at 95% playing with my feral close to 90%+ many newbies mystake >

    Simply?
    A whole class /3 spec =1 spec Feral.
    To counter a rogue right now is @@@ easy>>
    The class/spec hasn't change at all so no new things>>>Balls up
    Last edited by mmoc66990be288; 2014-05-01 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    The only time was represent in Cata was Legendary+ vial> Othertime was mid~~
    As for now they aren't that Op>
    Example?
    Playing rogue from the start> PLaying Feral from 4 months ago.
    Simply>?? Ok 2.1rate rogue . 2.4 rate with Feral is @#$!$%

    Playing with rogue at 95% playing with my feral close to 90%+ many newbies mystake >

    Simply?
    A whole class /3 spec =1 spec Feral.
    To counter a rogue right now is @@@ easy>>
    The class/spec hasn't change at all so no new things>>>Balls up
    This made almost zero sense. Try again? or maybe someone translate?
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  9. #9
    One of the biggest points about rogues is their lack of defensive. Don't get me wrong rogue's have many many ways to reduce damage to all but nil but past those CDs rogues are sitting ducks are extraordinarily squishy.

    We have possibly the worst healing in the game. We have low armor so physical stuff hurts more. Most of our mitigation comes from dodge which is RNG and vs. a warrior with over power means nothing. We're very easily countered and since we're melee roots are just as effective a way of CCing as a stun or fear giving rogues an extra bonus "sucks to be us" situation. (Minor on that note all roots like entangling roots and frost nova should act like priest void tendrils and be able to be DPSed down).

    Warriors and DKs both have a defensive stance they can just sit in and sadly do more than enough damage while in def stance so that it isn't even really noticeable since even with the rage penalty they still hit hard as shit. A warrior with second wind in def stance requires CDs to kill it's ridiculous. It's possible for a rogue to semi replicate that with a constant upkeep of feint + elusiveness but that's still easily countered. Just wait til the duration is almost up and CC and then once feint is off blow the rogue up.

    Also outside of CDs rogues just don't hit hard. A warrior or dk has constant pressure as well as burst with CDs up combined with strong defenses up 100% of the time, great healing and great defensive CDs.

    A rogue has good burst during CDs but outside of that do piss ass dps. They have very strong defensive CDs but once those are out they're essentially sitting ducks. And the icing on the cake is rogue healing is the worst in the game.

    Rogues need higher sustained damage. Like warriors and DKs they are dangerous outside of CDs. Same with a lot of classes really. Hunters for example don't really have many burst CDs to use they just hit hard and a hunter left alone does some serious damage. Mages run around shatter comboing for a shit ton all the time and have burst every time their stun is up. Quite possibly this is just a fact of dual wielding vs. two handers. Fury does better single target damage and in pve arms is typically the aoe cleave spec yet you never see fury warriors in arena. So really some how rogues needs a bump to their out of CD damage to make them not the fart-in-the-wind dps that they are.

    They also need some way to bump their defensives so that they can actually take a hit rather than getting insta gibbed once evasion and cloak are down.

  10. #10
    IMO, outside of stealth and cheapshot/kidney Rogues are nearly useless.

    What I really don't like is Shadow Dance, they've basically made it so that our best CC abilities are in stealth so once Shadow Dance is used a Rogue has to share that time to CC and be offensive while other offensive CDs classes have allow them to purely blow someone up.

    What I don't get is why people aren't making a big issue of losing Shadow Blades, they're basically taking away our only other offensive CD that's not Shadow Dance. So now we're forced to use Shadow Dance as our CC and offensive CD?

    I'm sure it's also been brought up before, but why do Rogues have to use their combo points to stun someone when most other classes allow them to use their stuns with no requirements. I find that incredibly silly, if we could have Kidney Shot cost no combo points and stun the target for 6 seconds with a 20 sec cooldown it would allow Rogues to have a little more sustained and pressure damage since we can essentially have a free Evis. If Rogues do use Kidney Shot on CD every time there will be a DR and it will be a 3 second stun anyways. Meanwhile Warlocks can use Blood Horror every 30 seconds that doesn't DR with fear, that's practically 11 seconds of CC every 30 seconds. Warriors at one point had a 4 second stun every 20 seconds.

  11. #11
    Where are Ret Paladins on the ladders again?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    Where are Ret Paladins on the ladders again?
    Funny you reference Rets, since the top Ret was actually ranked above every single Rogue yesterday when Vanguard broke 2700. There are 12 Rets on the ladder currently, so, while I'll admit Ret is weak compared to a lot of classes/specs right now too, it seems insane to me that the Rogue CLASS gets treated like a SPEC.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Funny you reference Rets, since the top Ret was actually ranked above every single Rogue yesterday when Vanguard broke 2700. There are 12 Rets on the ladder currently, so, while I'll admit Ret is weak compared to a lot of classes/specs right now too, it seems insane to me that the Rogue CLASS gets treated like a SPEC.
    I'll actually agree 100% with you on this. Rogue specs obviously have differences, but they never truly feel as different as say a Afflic/Demo/Destro Lock or an Arcane/Fire/Frost mage. They need a some sort of revamp.

  14. #14
    Rogues are not under-performing. In fact they are one of the stronger classes right now. Its just that people don't want to play them. I personally hate the rogue playstyle in pvp, and so do my friends. I have ~10 people I play with on a decently regular basis (all 2200+ people) and not one of us plays a rogue. We have tons of warriors, mages, druids, shams, monks, you name it. We just don't like the playstyle of rogues, its not fun, especially in arenas. My other friend who doesn't play anymore played rogue 1 season in cata (no not legendaries) and got 2200 in 45 games, better than anything else he played that season, then dropped it because he didn't like it. It just has a smaller following than say, warriors or mages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    I like how when people complain about getting killed by kill shot which can have a 43 yard range, no resource cost, and can be used again if it doesn't kill and everyone says WELL, HEY, YOU KNOW, IT IS CALLED KILL SHOT
    but when a warrior does it, clearly the ability's name is "useless wet noodle piece of shit strike with an exorbitant rage cost that should do the same damage as MS"

  15. #15
    lol at that twitter, everyone crying about shamans and some about elemental.

    oh it's OP in PvP but it's fine they're 75000 dps behind rogues on single target and that is fine eh?

    so sure nerf me in PvP, and give me another 75000 DAMAGE PER SECOND in PvE, and we're cool.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Rogues are not under-performing. In fact they are one of the stronger classes right now. Its just that people don't want to play them.
    Clearly some very good players who have historically played Rogues are still playing them, and yet they are underperforming compared to what they historically achieved.

    As of right now, Djpickaboo, a very well known multi-rank 1 Rogue, is the highest ranked Rogue in the US at #37 on the ladders. There's 5 mages, 5 warlocks, 5 warriors, 7 shamans (3 ele shamans!), and 4 priests (3 shadow priests) ranked above him, among other classes I didn't check.

    Now, I'm not going to base everything just on the top ranked player for each spec, but just about every single metric you look at says Rogues are pretty clearly underperforming. It's not just an issue of rep being down because the playstyle isn't fun (and btw, if the playstyle is bad, then that's a damn good reason for some changes too!).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    lol at that twitter, everyone crying about shamans and some about elemental.

    oh it's OP in PvP but it's fine they're 75000 dps behind rogues on single target and that is fine eh?

    so sure nerf me in PvP, and give me another 75000 DAMAGE PER SECOND in PvE, and we're cool.
    I think one of the single dumbest things Blizzard did was nurture this idea that every spec should be within 1-2% DPS of each other on a Patchwerk-style single target 6 minute boss fight.

  17. #17
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Where are you getting your numbers from?
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  18. #18
    Rogues arent under performing if used properly, how blizz designed them. But people don't. All people want to see in PVP is a high kill score so they go with classes that one shot people. Cause "If I have the most kills I'm the best".
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Where are you getting your numbers from?
    Which numbers are you interested in? The ladder representation I took straight from Blizzard's US 3v3 Ladders: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Rogues arent under performing if used properly, how blizz designed them. But people don't. All people want to see in PVP is a high kill score so they go with classes that one shot people. Cause "If I have the most kills I'm the best".
    How can you say that when the very best Rogues in the world are underperforming compared to how they have done historically? See my comment above, and watch a video that shows exactly what happens to a multi-rank 1 rogue against other rank 1 players: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJoDCYlwHTQ#t=1422
    That sort of thing simply could not happen to a lot of classes due to immunities or defensive cooldowns that can be used while stunned/CC'ed, and I think it highlights extremely well the positional disadvantages of melee, Rogue susceptibility to roots, and our extreme vulnerability with no trinket up.

  20. #20
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Which numbers are you interested in? The ladder representation I took straight from Blizzard's US 3v3 Ladders: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3
    Rogues seem fine in rbgs.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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