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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Remery View Post
    "Camouflage no longer breaks from dealing or taking damage."

    So let's nerf Subterfuge so we can give to Hunters as if they weren't strong enough in PvP as is like Rogues are. /sarcasm
    It's actually better than that:

    Enhanced Camouflage
    Requires Hunter (Beast Mastery, Marksmanship, Survival)
    You heal 3% of your maximum health every 1 sec while Camouflage is active.
    Improved Camouflage
    Requires Hunter (Survival)
    Camouflage no longer breaks from dealing or taking damage.
    This will actually screw over casters pretty hardcore. Rogues are actually still fairly easy to peel even when they're in Subterfuge because a) you can still see/hit them, and b) you have a pretty good idea of where they are so it's easy to use AoE CC's on them.

    Hunters on the other hand are completely immune to ranged attacks in Camo, even if you can see them. So this will guarantee an opener for Survival Hunters and give them 6 seconds of additional immunity and also provides an amazing defensive cooldown where they can heal for 3%/sec for unlimited duration until they attack/get hit (so casters, go swing your Staff at them), and then still get 6 seconds of immunity on top of that and an additional 18% healing.

    As of right now, a 3s comp of Survival Hunter/Boomkin/Healer would be absolute AIDS for a lot of caster cleaves (Boomkins are getting 2 charges of 70% damage reduction on separate 2 minute timers). Most likely with an RSham healing.
    Last edited by dak1; 2014-05-03 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #22
    Im more worried about the heal part. In a 1v1 situation hunter can trap you, leave combat and heal to full really fast once a minute. Though the immunity part is really strong too. Also the part where dps druids get this mega shieldwall with 2 charges is pretty stupid

  3. #23
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    This is 100% a perk that should be for PvE and of course it's going to get nerfed for PvP like always.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    Druid cats? or does that not count?
    Did druids get Subterfuge too or are you offtopic?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
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  5. #25
    Subterfuge is a terrible talent and this is even worse.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    The "Combat Camo" is ONLY for Survival spec, which NOBODY plays in PvP because it has no burst and DoTs can be dispelled.

    Also if you enter combat with Camo, it will automatically drop the duration to 6 seconds if above that.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Nalira's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    • Rogues have been removed from the game.
    • All Rogues are now Hunters.

  8. #28
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    The "Combat Camo" is ONLY for Survival spec, which NOBODY plays in PvP because it has no burst and DoTs can be dispelled.

    Also if you enter combat with Camo, it will automatically drop the duration to 6 seconds if above that.
    Agree, and not to mention all freaking bugs Camo have now imo, I get out of it constant from different small things. : I

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Did druids get Subterfuge too or are you offtopic?
    Sinndra replied to someone saying stealth was unique/iconic for Rogues, though Druid cats have it too, wasn't about Subterfuge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runningman View Post
    Im more worried about the heal part. In a 1v1 situation hunter can trap you, leave combat and heal to full really fast once a minute. Though the immunity part is really strong too. Also the part where dps druids get this mega shieldwall with 2 charges is pretty stupid
    I don't think it's so bad really. Rogues been doing that for ages, run away and eat up. So why is this worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    This will actually screw over casters pretty hardcore. Rogues are actually still fairly easy to peel even when they're in Subterfuge because a) you can still see/hit them, and b) you have a pretty good idea of where they are so it's easy to use AoE CC's on them.

    Hunters on the other hand are completely immune to ranged attacks in Camo, even if you can see them. So this will guarantee an opener for Survival Hunters and give them 6 seconds of additional immunity and also provides an amazing defensive cooldown where they can heal for 3%/sec for unlimited duration until they attack/get hit (so casters, go swing your Staff at them), and then still get 6 seconds of immunity on top of that and an additional 18% healing.
    You can use AoE to get Hunters out of Camo too though. I have no idea why you get Rogues are easier to see then Hunters but okay. And from what I understand, are they immune to damage, not CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remery View Post
    Not sure by your definition how that's not stealing when Subterfuge no longer hides the Rogue in stealth rather allows them to use their abilities for 3 seconds and Hunters are able to stay in stealth after taking damage and dealing damage, sounds exactly like taking something away from somebody.
    If they stole it from Rogues, would it mean they took the ability, gave it to Hunters and removed it for Rogues. What Hunters get is a COPY of the ability, big difference. For you playing rogue not knowing what stealing is, kind of ironic.
    Last edited by Ironjaws-Mike; 2014-05-03 at 05:16 PM.
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  9. #29
    How can people defend this? It's obviously going to get nerfed to absolute oblivion, or Survival Hunters will dominate almost anyone. It doesn't matter whatsoever that "nobody" plays Survival in PvP (although a lot do), Subterfuge is getting nerfed for being OP; Hunters are getting Subterfuge that lasts *TWICE* as long, and also heals for 18% for the duration.

    You'd have to be a pretty bad Hunter to wish for this level of ridiculousness to get into the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    If they stole it from Rogues, would it mean they took the ability, gave it to Hunters and removed it for Rogues. What Hunters get is a COPY of the ability, big difference. For you playing rogue not knowing what stealing is, kind of ironic.
    Funny that you should say this, seeing as Rogues are losing the invisibility part of Subterfuge. In other words, Hunters are stealing it by your definition.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Asshat View Post
    How can people defend this? It's obviously going to get nerfed to absolute oblivion, or Survival Hunters will dominate almost anyone. It doesn't matter whatsoever that "nobody" plays Survival in PvP (although a lot do), Subterfuge is getting nerfed for being OP; Hunters are getting Subterfuge that lasts *TWICE* as long, and also heals for 18% for the duration.

    You'd have to be a pretty bad Hunter to wish for this level of ridiculousness to get into the game.
    It will probably be nerfed and changed yes. Though it will be many changes to all classes, so it might fit better for Survival gameplay. And you need to take into context that Rogues have way different tool-sets then Hunters, they work differently. Like you could say Mages have a less version of Paladins bubble.

    And need to think only Survival can have that option, while all Rogue specs can have Subterfurge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Asshat View Post
    Funny that you should say this, seeing as Rogues are losing the invisibility part of Subterfuge. In other words, Hunters are stealing it by your definition.
    But the Rogues still have Subterfurge, it's still there, not stolen.

    And if Camo acts as now, will the Hunter turn visible when attacking, just the effect that last on like Subterfurge.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    And from what I understand, are they immune to damage, not CC.
    Hunters are impossible to target with any ranged ability while in Camo. That includes things like Sap, which count as ranged. A Rogue can walk up behind a Hunter, stand 5 yards away, and be forever unable to Sap the Hunter.

    So yes, it's an immunity to ALL ranged, INCLUDING CC, which even includes things like Sap and Blind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    But the Rogues still have Subterfurge, it's still there, not stolen.
    Subterfuge will not keep Rogues in stealth. It will simply allow them to use stealth abilities while not stealthed (like Shadow Dance). So no, Rogues really will not have the MoP version of Subterfuge any more.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Hunters are impossible to target with any ranged ability while in Camo. That includes things like Sap, which count as ranged. A Rogue can walk up behind a Hunter, stand 5 yards away, and be forever unable to Sap the Hunter.

    So yes, it's an immunity to ALL ranged, INCLUDING CC, which even includes things like Sap and Blind.
    Well nearly. All targetable ranged abilities yes, but they are not immune to non targetable cc (aoe).
    Ring/trap/shadowfury/howl/drood+pala dissorient ect.

    Think of it as a smoke bomb that moves araund with you for 6 sec.
    Last edited by Ettan; 2014-05-03 at 06:08 PM.

  13. #33
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Hunters are impossible to target with any ranged ability while in Camo. That includes things like Sap, which count as ranged. A Rogue can walk up behind a Hunter, stand 5 yards away, and be forever unable to Sap the Hunter.

    So yes, it's an immunity to ALL ranged, INCLUDING CC, which even includes things like Sap and Blind.
    I meant ranged AoE attacks, they can get Hunters out as well Rogues from stealth.

    Also meant about when they are out of it, with the immunity for damage, like Subterfuge, if they are immune to CC as well then? Do we know that yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Subterfuge will not keep Rogues in stealth. It will simply allow them to use stealth abilities while not stealthed (like Shadow Dance). So no, Rogues really will not have the MoP version of Subterfuge any more.
    But it is still Subterfuge, just a little bit different (invisible and not invisible, do the same thing). It's not like it's a new different ability, it's still Subterfuge. And many abilities changes between expansions. Camo as we talk about is one of many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettan View Post
    Well nearly. All targetable ranged abilities yes, but they are not immune to non targetable cc (aoe).
    Ring/trap/shadowfury/howl/drood+pala dissorient ect.

    Think of it as a smoke bomb that moves araund with you for 6 sec.
    Dont say that, then Rogues gonna cry that we 'stole' more of their abilities.
    Mix red and blue, what do we get?

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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ettan View Post
    Well nearly. All targetable ranged abilities yes, but they are not immune to non targetable cc (aoe).
    Ring/trap/shadowfury/howl/drood+pala dissorient ect.

    Think of it as a smoke bomb that moves araund with you for 6 sec.
    ... At the risk of being pedantic, you just corrected me by telling me exactly what I just said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    Also meant about when they are out of it, with the immunity for damage, like Subterfuge, if they are immune to CC as well then? Do we know that yet?
    Since Hunter's are immune to targeted ranged attacks while in Camo, and this keeps them in Camo (it's not even a different talent/spell/passive, it's just Enhanced Camo), I'd be extremely surprised if that immunity was not maintained.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    But it is still Subterfuge, just a little bit different (invisible and not invisible, do the same thing). It's not like it's a new different ability, it's still Subterfuge.
    No, it's not. It's a different ability that happens to have the same name. That's why a lot of Rogues complained and asked for the talent to be switched and keep Rogues in stealth when taking damage rather than when dealing damage.

  15. #35
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    So yes, it's an immunity to ALL ranged, INCLUDING CC, which even includes things like Sap and Blind.
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    ... At the risk of being pedantic, you just corrected me by telling me exactly what I just said.
    Think was through that he state what he did, since you made it sound like no kind of attack or CC could affect.


    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Since Hunter's are immune to targeted ranged attacks while in Camo, and this keeps them in Camo (it's not even a different talent/spell/passive, it's just Enhanced Camo), I'd be extremely surprised if that immunity was not maintained.
    Well, we don't know yet, something we will see for sure. And on the good side, Survival is weak in all other aspects in PvP, you will probably be flooded by BM and MM anyways as now!

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    No, it's not. It's a different ability that happens to have the same name. That's why a lot of Rogues complained and asked for the talent to be switched and keep Rogues in stealth when taking damage rather than when dealing damage.
    Depends on who you ask. In my eyes it's the same ability, just a bit different and I still see it as Subterfuge imo, but guess it's in the eyes of the beholder.
    Mix red and blue, what do we get?

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    Think was through that he state what he did, since you made it sound like no kind of attack or CC could affect.
    Why does it feel like I'm being trolled?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    Well, we don't know yet, something we will see for sure. And on the good side, Survival is weak in all other aspects in PvP, you will probably be flooded by BM and MM anyways as now!
    Survival is currently better than BM. I've done RBGs and 5s with a Survival over 2k.

    And, if you seriously think that's not how camo works right now... I don't know what to say. If we could place bets, I would happily bet you a huge sum of money that as currently implemented, it works exactly like Camo, since, it's still Camo.

  17. #37
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Why does it feel like I'm being trolled?
    If you feel trolled, then I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Survival is currently better than BM. I've done RBGs and 5s with a Survival over 2k.

    And, if you seriously think that's not how camo works right now... I don't know what to say. If we could place bets, I would happily bet you a huge sum of money that as currently implemented, it works exactly like Camo, since, it's still Camo.
    MM is better then SV though.

    And what about how camo works? I have no idea what you are going on. Think you are the one trying to trolling here.
    Mix red and blue, what do we get?

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    And what about how camo works?
    Camo:
    You blend into your surroundings, causing you and your pet to be untargetable by ranged attacks. Also reduces the range at which enemy creatures can detect you, and provides stealth while stationary.
    It doesn't even make sense for Camo to NOT provide immunity to targeted ranged attacks, because outside of the glyph of camo, you don't appear in stealth while camo is active (and you move).

    Honestly what doesn't make sense is the glyph of camo.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    If they stole it from Rogues, would it mean they took the ability, gave it to Hunters and removed it for Rogues. What Hunters get is a COPY of the ability, big difference. For you playing rogue not knowing what stealing is, kind of ironic.
    Maybe you misread the title, but I titled this topic as Hunters stealing a PERK, not stealing an ABILITY. The fact that they've removed the Rogues PERK, as in an advantage in regards to a certain skill/ability that no one class had prior, to hide in stealth with Subterfuge for 3 seconds and have given it to hunters is exactly taking something away from someone or some class and giving it to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Why does it feel like I'm being trolled?
    I'm all for creating discussion and sharing ideas, but I'm feeling the same way. Reading some of these posts I have to wonder if some actually understand the situation and play a Rogue, let alone understand what the definition of steal is.

    As Dak has mentioned, Camo in some ways is already better than stealth/subterfuge as the Hunter in Camo cannot be CC by some abilities. The other issue with removing the defensive aspect of allowing Rogues to hide in stealth for an extra 3 seconds is that they will now be more vulnerable to CCs once they are hit or get in combat. Now given to hunters, it will give them an extra 6 seconds of protection against certain CC while being able to apply the same amount of pressure and damage. I'm very interested to see what Rogues will get in compensation for a class getting this perk/advantage that we once had.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Camo:


    It doesn't even make sense for Camo to NOT provide immunity to targeted ranged attacks, because outside of the glyph of camo, you don't appear in stealth while camo is active (and you move).

    Honestly what doesn't make sense is the glyph of camo.
    Getting untargetable by ranged attacks, not AoE. And I assume it's because they blend with the surroundings, making them hard to aim on, aka the untargetable part. I assume what Blizzard meant for it at least.

    And I dont know what's wrong with Glyph of Camo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Remery View Post
    Maybe you misread the title, but I titled this topic as Hunters stealing a PERK, not stealing an ABILITY. The fact that they've removed the Rogues PERK, as in an advantage in regards to a certain skill/ability that no one class had prior, to hide in stealth with Subterfuge for 3 seconds and have given it to hunters is exactly taking something away from someone or some class and giving it to the other.
    But you all the time spoke about SUBTERFUGE, as the ability, not the perk, so that was what I was replying on.

    And it's no perk now, they will come in WoD. So they just changed the ability imo.

    You got a better version of Missdirection, think of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remery View Post
    I'm all for creating discussion and sharing ideas, but I'm feeling the same way. Reading some of these posts I have to wonder if some actually understand the situation and play a Rogue, let alone understand what the definition of steal is.
    What? You started of being /sarcasm and throw a fit against anyone trying to put up a discussion, so don't try to sneak out of that. Imo you haven't done anything to promote the better of the discussion.

    And I play Rogue as well, though as alt. And I can tell you, Rogues stealth and abilities with it is a heaven compared to Hunters clunky and buggy Camo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remery View Post
    As Dak has mentioned, Camo in some ways is already better than stealth/subterfuge as the Hunter in Camo cannot be CC by some abilities. The other issue with removing the defensive aspect of allowing Rogues to hide in stealth for an extra 3 seconds is that they will now be more vulnerable to CCs once they are hit or get in combat. Now given to hunters, it will give them an extra 6 seconds of protection against certain CC while being able to apply the same amount of pressure and damage. I'm very interested to see what Rogues will get in compensation for a class getting this perk/advantage that we once had.
    Aaaaand Rogues have Vanish and plenty of other tools to re-stealth again, something Hunters don't have. As long a Hunter is in combat can't they utilize Camo at all. And that 6 extra seconds you talk about only apply to Survival (and will probably be changed), not all Hunters.

    You are getting Combo points on you, ain't that good as compensation? : p

    Honestly, probably things will change, rogues will still be the king of stealth no matter what.
    Last edited by Ironjaws-Mike; 2014-05-03 at 08:35 PM.
    Mix red and blue, what do we get?

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