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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Muezick that's so wrong lol. Avoided hits still grant vengeance just as a normal hit does..
    I've heard yes and no on this all expansion, it would be nice to know the real scoop.

    You will without a doubt take less damage using SD but there is also a greater chance you will die. Personally I use SD most of the time so the healers can concentrate on healing the raid, but those infrequent times where I feel there is a chance I could die I use FR. If it's something predictable you can do both if your rage generation is high enough. Get up a 10+ second SD and then bank rage for FR.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    I've heard yes and no on this all expansion, it would be nice to know the real scoop.

    You will without a doubt take less damage using SD but there is also a greater chance you will die. Personally I use SD most of the time so the healers can concentrate on healing the raid, but those infrequent times where I feel there is a chance I could die I use FR. If it's something predictable you can do both if your rage generation is high enough. Get up a 10+ second SD and then bank rage for FR.
    Vengeance works this way:

    it takes unmitigated damage (Before armor, cooldowns, any damage reduction) and turns it into attack power. The bonus attack power rolls for 20 seconds, so after 20 second, your first hit won't be in your vengeance anymore.

    Avoided hits assume that the hit you avoided is equal to an average hit from your enemy. So if a hit gives you 1000 vengeance, a dodge will give you 1000 vengeance.

    That is the fact. No guide worth a penny ever says that avoidance prevents vengeance, only rumours spread by people who dont know what they are saying.

    SD doesn't have a "greater chance you will die". You'll maintain near 100% uptime when tanking on taunt swaps.. if you spam frenzied regen, youll overheal a lot, burn through rage like crazy, take a LOT more hits, and you'll eventually fall down because you dont have infinite rage gen. Saying SD is bad because of the low chance of taking 3, even 4 hits in a row is possible is a bit crazy...

    Anyways, with nowadays' rage gen, theres plenty of rage for SD and to be still rage capped anyways.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Anyways, with nowadays' rage gen, theres plenty of rage for SD and to be still rage capped anyways.
    Yeah this makes the point moot. Otherwise I wouldn't disagree with you teddabear. Being one hundred percent sure to survive certain damage in stead of having to rely on a fairly high dodge chance is better even though you may take more damage in the process. This thought process might change in WoD though, depending on how tough they make healing (I doubt it though).

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Except the hard cap for SD uptime is 66%.
    I think what Meatgrinder meant is that during active tanking you should be able to keep up Savage Defense until you need to swap with your co-tank. So for example, if you're on a fight that requires two tanks, swapping at say 10 stacks of a debuff and that is repeated for the whole fight, then whenever you are tanking then Savage Defense should be up, and when you are not tanking your charges are building up again.

    In a nut shell when two tanking, if your getting beaten in the face by the boss, then savage defense should always be up.

  5. #25
    on armory link he have very low mastery=armor, this also could cause increased dmg taken,
    looks like he read somewhere that people go haste at higher lvl,and he did it without thinking
    also tank cloack could save his ass sometimes

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    on armory link he have very low mastery=armor, this also could cause increased dmg taken,
    looks like he read somewhere that people go haste at higher lvl,and he did it without thinking
    also tank cloack could save his ass sometimes
    RPS is more effective at handling damage than Mastery assuming you play well.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    with our enormous health pool and the loss of our armor bonus
    Where on earth did you hear this? Of all the bs changes I've seen in the alpha notes, killing Bear armor was not one of them... I seriously hope you misread something.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Where on earth did you hear this? Of all the bs changes I've seen in the alpha notes, killing Bear armor was not one of them... I seriously hope you misread something.
    Guardian Druids' Mastery (Nature's Guardian) has been replaced with a new Mastery: Primal Tenacity.
    Mastery: Primal Tenacity causes the Druid to gain a Physical absorb shield equal to 16% of the attack's damage when they are hit by a Physical attack. Attacks which this effect fully or partially absorbs cannot trigger Primal Tenacity.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...rds-of-Draenor



    Seems like master is still going to suck shit next expac with haste lowering the gcd(As well as the cool down on mangle) and crits still giving rage (Albiet FAR less)

    We're going to be bearadins, with our rabid haste stacking, I thinks.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Where on earth did you hear this? Of all the bs changes I've seen in the alpha notes, killing Bear armor was not one of them... I seriously hope you misread something.
    I assume he's referring to the changed Mastery. I could be wrong though.

    Our base armor modifier hasn't changed.

    Seems like master is still going to suck shit next expac
    While it does have situational problems, it's substantially better than what we have now since it works on all physical damage.

    Haste will be good because it increases MS uptime and mitigation through T&C. There's hardly any reason to take it for the extra Rage since (at least right now) we have ~18 RPS completely naked.

  10. #30
    Huh, yeah I suppose that is true Arielle.

    I guess I hadn't actually done the math on it.

    Guess I'll just keep collecting gear of all sorts in anticipation of the 6.0 drop. I know that gear will only be useful for a month or so, but I *love* playing with major systems changes, and having the gear available to do so, to test in a raid environment, will be great.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Vengeance works this way:

    it takes unmitigated damage (Before armor, cooldowns, any damage reduction) and turns it into attack power. The bonus attack power rolls for 20 seconds, so after 20 second, your first hit won't be in your vengeance anymore.

    Avoided hits assume that the hit you avoided is equal to an average hit from your enemy. So if a hit gives you 1000 vengeance, a dodge will give you 1000 vengeance.

    That is the fact. No guide worth a penny ever says that avoidance prevents vengeance, only rumours spread by people who dont know what they are saying.

    SD doesn't have a "greater chance you will die". You'll maintain near 100% uptime when tanking on taunt swaps.. if you spam frenzied regen, youll overheal a lot, burn through rage like crazy, take a LOT more hits, and you'll eventually fall down because you dont have infinite rage gen. Saying SD is bad because of the low chance of taking 3, even 4 hits in a row is possible is a bit crazy...

    Anyways, with nowadays' rage gen, theres plenty of rage for SD and to be still rage capped anyways.
    I think there is a little more to it than that. For example vengeance ramps up much quicker than it should by that math. It definitely doesn't take 20 seconds to reach full vengeance. Regarding dodge I know when I get a dodge streak my vengeance will drop.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Where on earth did you hear this? Of all the bs changes I've seen in the alpha notes, killing Bear armor was not one of them... I seriously hope you misread something.
    We lost our armor mastery, unless they compensate it (Which they havent in alpha), were going to take bigger hits, and one hit out of two will be smaller than what it is today. I feel that this makes sense with the increased bear HP... especially if haste>multistrike becomes our stat priority (I think its very very likely.)

    Haste will be good because it increases MS uptime and mitigation through T&C. There's hardly any reason to take it for the extra Rage since (at least right now) we have ~18 RPS completely naked.
    Pretty sure with the new healer model making it really hard to heal a tank from 0 to full and our higher hp, we'll have to heal ourselves -a lot- more. Something i'd welcome as frenzied regen is probably the most gratifying AM out there.

    I think there is a little more to it than that. For example vengeance ramps up much quicker than it should by that math. It definitely doesn't take 20 seconds to reach full vengeance. Regarding dodge I know when I get a dodge streak my vengeance will drop.
    Well, I haven't read that anywhere, but it's always likely the first hit bumps you a lot more than subsequent hits, so theres not a too big rampup time on your active mitigation that scales off vengeance

  13. #33
    We lost our armor mastery, unless they compensate it (Which they havent in alpha), were going to take bigger hits, and one hit out of two will be smaller than what it is today. I feel that this makes sense with the increased bear HP... especially if haste>multistrike becomes our stat priority (I think its very very likely.)
    I think you're exaggerating this too much. Relative to today's damage an individual melee swing will be slightly larger (and I mean, VERY slightly), but we more than make up for it with the new Mastery which now affects all physical damage. Again outside of multi-variable-strength-mob scenarios which still need to be addressed.

    Pretty sure with the new healer model making it really hard to heal a tank from 0 to full and our higher hp, we'll have to heal ourselves -a lot- more. Something i'd welcome as frenzied regen is probably the most gratifying AM out there.
    Maybe I wasn't very clear. I'll try again. Since our base resource generation is so high currently (well, at least in this iteration, likely to get nerfed), it inherently makes other stats more attractive since we'll be able to dedicate ~6.6666 RPS to SD, which leaves around 11.5 for FR. That's a lot for a completely naked Bear. The main reason RPS stats were so attractive at the start of this expansion is because we needed them so badly. Take away that "need" and other stat/build possibilities open up depending on the content.

    I expect Mastery to be very popular.

    Well, I haven't read that anywhere, but it's always likely the first hit bumps you a lot more than subsequent hits, so theres not a too big rampup time on your active mitigation that scales off vengeance
    It predicts the average off of the first hit you take and bumps you to a percentage of that amount as a minimum.

  14. #34
    By bigger hits, i didn't actually mean much bigger hits, i just meant the hits we'll take will be higher than the hits we take right now.

    And we'll see about rage.. i always felt like the numbers were a bit high though for alpha... especially considering we have autoattacks on top of it unlike warriors. Guessing there will be a nerf, but we don't know how much one frenzied regen will actually heal us, and how fast healers will be able to top us off. Next thing we know we might not see full self-heal frenzied regens anymore. I guess alpha is alpha.

    As far as mastery goes.. we'll see, we don't know the scaling yet, but it doesnt sound reliable for tank killer moves.. its pretty much just a autoattack smoother. I can see it rise in popularity if rage gen stats are weak, but blizzard promised stats relatively close to eachother, so we can guess that we'll want rage gen stats.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    And we'll see about rage.. i always felt like the numbers were a bit high though for alpha... especially considering we have autoattacks on top of it unlike warriors. Guessing there will be a nerf, but we don't know how much one frenzied regen will actually heal us, and how fast healers will be able to top us off. Next thing we know we might not see full self-heal frenzied regens anymore. I guess alpha is alpha.

    As far as mastery goes.. we'll see, we don't know the scaling yet, but it doesnt sound reliable for tank killer moves.. its pretty much just a autoattack smoother. I can see it rise in popularity if rage gen stats are weak, but blizzard promised stats relatively close to eachother, so we can guess that we'll want rage gen stats.
    That's partially why I think the rage generation values might have to decline a bit, because the RPS projected from alpha numbers are higher than we could ever dream of. Depending upon Blizz's intent for RPS for Guardians (perhaps the model is so that we don't have to ever worry about rage generation with weaker gear, although that has huge ramifications/problems), crit rating would cease to be necessary for rage generation and be purely a DPS stat with the alpha RPS. I suppose Blizz could make us use all that rage via FR and design us around that, but that solution seems even more ludicrous depending upon how much FR will heal. My guess is the intent is two-fold: allow for a baseline rage generation that doesn't neuter Guardians if they don't have enough gear and to have a more proactive rage generation model. The fine-tuning for rage numbers probably won't start until beta at the earliest.

    Same goes for mastery, in terms of getting a baseline number and scaling that I would trust. It's one of those things that could be very underwhelming or seriously overpowered depending upon how well mastery scales. While I want to say Blizz would err on the cautious side and make mastery weaker to avoid the need to make it an EH-centric stat (having it increase attack power off-sets the stat's "weight"), it all depends on what is considered a close balance of secondary stats for Guardians.

    At this point, mastery and haste seem to be the only stats that really might have a direct impact on our survival, with crit being a stat that's not bad to have but we don't gear for it. Ironically, it feels like the complete opposite of live on paper, however alpha is alpha.

    ...oh wait, this thread was about live Guardians. Oh well, haste building looks more viable from the point of view of the alpha, currently it's not something really recommended. To the OP, the gear is fine, it's the gameplay of the person behind the Guardian that is questionable, as people have been stating.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire Soulscorch's Avatar
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    I find that the BiS trinkets working for me in 10-man are Bloodlust talisman and Haromm's trinket. Extra haste means there are moments where i cap rage in ~4 seconds and the agi proc gives me extra dodge. What i found to be useful in high-damage situations is keeping up Savage Defense even if i am at 60-70 rage, because the next second or 2 i have enough rage (20-30) to heal myself to full due to high vengeance.
    Face your Demons, befriend them, listen to their needs and feed them regularly in times when you and your closest ones get afflicted the least. No one likes a hungry demon on the loose.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulscorch View Post
    I find that the BiS trinkets working for me in 10-man are Bloodlust talisman and Haromm's trinket. Extra haste means there are moments where i cap rage in ~4 seconds and the agi proc gives me extra dodge. What i found to be useful in high-damage situations is keeping up Savage Defense even if i am at 60-70 rage, because the next second or 2 i have enough rage (20-30) to heal myself to full due to high vengeance.


    Going to say this as being true from what i have encountered. Using the dmg reduc meta, dps cloak, teds, and harom's with a crit to 76% rest into a haste build. Im using SofF and NV. With this set up i can open with 600k dps snd finish up most fights around 300k


    As a druid tank i have so many cds its really pointless to do anything but dps and spam FR. On the hard hitting fights SD works, but most of
    The time you are just dpsing anyway. FR is really op for any fight that doenst hit hard and for a druid tank thats most SoO fights.

  18. #38
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    I honestly think they only real MS we will want to gain is from the wep enchant, we will have 5% raid buffed and w/e we get from gear. Leaves open our gems, enchants, food, and flask for either Haste on a more magic heavy fight or Mastery for a more physical fight.


    This biggest change I'm excited about is them making our DPS not based on vengeance.

  19. #39
    That is also my thought... just enough MS for 100% uptime on ursa major to gain the 5% extra hp. Although i wouldve loved bis stats being haste multistrike!

    However i highly doubt that we'll be able to gear with both our bis stats in every slot with hit/exp being gone.. on top of reforge being gone. We'll have to take in consideration a 3rd best stat and probably a 4th depending on gear options. So far multistrike looks like our 3rd stat since crit sucks and versatility is tuned to be worse than other stats.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Khatix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    That is also my thought... just enough MS for 100% uptime on ursa major to gain the 5% extra hp. Although i wouldve loved bis stats being haste multistrike!

    However i highly doubt that we'll be able to gear with both our bis stats in every slot with hit/exp being gone.. on top of reforge being gone. We'll have to take in consideration a 3rd best stat and probably a 4th depending on gear options. So far multistrike looks like our 3rd stat since crit sucks and versatility is tuned to be worse than other stats.
    Wonder if Versatility the +healing part boost our mastery bubbles, cause then it would have slightly more value.


    Now only if we can get them to make incarnation more connected with pulverize we would be in a better place.

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