Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Druid tank haste build

    Hello druid tanks, Would like your input on our trial druid. I'm currently sim'ing him atm and he insists that he has to stay a haste build, we did 12/14h last 2 days and he was extremely spikey, currently going over his logs and also simcraft. So far the following comes to mind:
    We are 25man btw.
    What abilities benefit from a haste build?
    Is it even smar to go haste over a crit build?

    Armory link to said bear. I don't know bears that well and will be talking to him tonight and would like some additional input before I tell him to switch to a crit build.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pirit/advanced

  2. #2
    Going haste above 76-79% crit (In bearform, which is probably has since he has 60% crit outside of it..) is the optimal way to gear, as you cant gain more crit chance from autoattacks beyond that point, as you can't erase the 24% glancing chance. His gear seems fine, although Haromm's trinket does little for a bear... he should use one of the stam trinkets, preferably malkorok's.

    He has a dps legendary cloak, which isnt that bad... unless he is dieing.

    TBH if he is spiky, its probably more because of how he plays.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Going haste above 76-79% crit (In bearform, which is probably has since he has 60% crit outside of it..) is the optimal way to gear, as you cant gain more crit chance from autoattacks beyond that point, as you can't erase the 24% glancing chance. His gear seems fine, although Haromm's trinket does little for a bear... he should use one of the stam trinkets, preferably malkorok's.

    He has a dps legendary cloak, which isnt that bad... unless he is dieing.

    TBH if he is spiky, its probably more because of how he plays.
    1. Haromm's trinket is for DPS and the Agi proc. Stamina trinkets are already wasted if you don't need the survivability. Besides, BiS trinkets are Thok Amplification and Immerseus Amplification trinkets.

    2. Should only need Tank cloak for last 3 bosses, for everything else the DPS cloak is fine to use.

    3. Bear Tanks are spiky, but they have a massive health pool and Frenzied Regen(basically LoH during medium-high vengeance situations) to compensate for spikiness so healers don't have a heart attack every 5 seconds.

  4. #4
    Ok thanks for the replies, I will check his health regen against other logs then.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by smallpackage View Post
    Ok thanks for the replies, I will check his health regen against other logs then.
    If you are to evaluate him. See how he spends his rage.. his uptime on savage defense should be pretty high (Hard to say how much.. but you can maintain nearly 100% uptime when actively tanking on taunt swap fights) He should be using tooth&claw (Aka empowered mauls) as much as possible at that gear level, and he should still have rage left over to use frenzied regen to heal himself back up.

    And terokkar, they are saying he is hard to heal.. stamina trinkets are definitely better than dieing/being spiky than a simple dps trinket. That said, malkorok's trinket is really, really amazing for bears.

  6. #6
    his average savage defense is 22%, are you online available to talk? brawwwr#1584 here are our logs for our kill last night on siegecrafter, granted it was the last pull of the night but meh.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...Vnd#type=auras

  7. #7
    Yea, he is severely slacking with savage defense... and going all-out maul spam with a bunch of self-healing. If you look at his periods of high damage taken and his savage defense usage.. you'll see he doesnt exactly have a stellar uptime during those. Self-healing is great, but if you focus self-healing more than savage defense... youll heal less than what you could have avoided. Plus, going down to 20%hp, and healing yourself back to 60-70%, will still make healers freak out and seem like he is spiking

    For exemple in a 8min fight.. if you tank like half the time (Not really the case for blackfuse.. as it's actually more than that) Your uptime on SD should be closer to 40-50%. Max SD uptime would be 60% if you nonstop used it, a bit more if you count 2piece bear..

  8. #8
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,059
    Quote Originally Posted by smallpackage View Post
    his average savage defense is 22%, are you online available to talk? brawwwr#1584 here are our logs for our kill last night on siegecrafter, granted it was the last pull of the night but meh.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...Vnd#type=auras
    22% is embarrassingly low.

    And looking at that link you provided...he's using maul more than mangle (assuming I read that correctly, if not ignore me lol).

  9. #9
    Thats bizzare, he must be sitting at rage cap a lot. I cant imagine why he just isnt using SD, it should be close enough to 100% uptime with gear like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illunis View Post
    Stop looking for sense in a game that mails you dragons.
    This is your stop, time to get off the bandwagon.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatgrinder View Post
    Thats bizzare, he must be sitting at rage cap a lot. I cant imagine why he just isnt using SD, it should be close enough to 100% uptime with gear like that.
    Except the hard cap for SD uptime is 66%.

  11. #11
    My guild just 14/14H a few days ago.

    My Gear: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rgirl/advanced


    It's probably a bad habit, but I've gotten into the habit of just healing myself with Frenzied regen. I take more damage, so I have more vengeance, and I feel like I have more control over my own survivability. Savage Defense feels like i am gambling with my life every time I use it in high damage situations, it goes up, but if I fail to dodge, I may die, and then have no rage to heal myself. With Frenzied Regen, the extra damage I take from not using Savage DEfense constantly ramps my vengeance up, causing my Frenzied regen to ramp up, which in turn allows me to refill my health bar on demand, and for *really* high damage cases, I can pop Ursoc's and Incarnation and literally spam Mangle for infinite rageheals.

    I basically soak every single one of Garrosh's Annihilates during intermissions on that fight with this principal. If I do it right, it's completely safe and I wind up with like 650,000 vengeance hehe

    I've spoken with my healers about this play style and they don't mind it. They know I'm spiky, and have gotten used to it. Between Health stones, Enrage, 47% haste white hitcrit spam with 79% crit and on demand ragespam from Berzerk and Incarnation, it feels like I do a lot of my own healing.



    All that being said, Savage Defense just doesn't seem worth it. There is a reason they are changing it and a lot about bears next expac you know.



    p.s. For now, gearing crit then haste is the way to go. When 6.0 drops, it's looking like haste may become king, but until then, there's no reason what so ever you should prioritize haste over crit until you get to 79%~ crit (Actual crit rating of about 17,000-18,000, out of bear form, since from procs/buffs/flask, etc, you'll hit the cap and anything over is wasted and could be haste)


    Edit: I am not 100% shaming Savage Defense, there are still a few places in the game I use it, but in general, I default to Frenzied Regen for my "active" Mitigation. Which is a misnomer, I know, but it still *seems* to work that way.
    Last edited by Muezick; 2014-05-04 at 03:26 PM.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  12. #12
    High Overlord keqe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    113
    Avoiding attacks give you the same amount of vengeance as if it hit you. Using Savage Defense does not lower your vengeance in comparison. Only exception is special attacks that only refresh it.

  13. #13
    Hmm, now that you mention it, it seems like I read that some where and Forgot about it Keqe.

    It would be nice if the tool tips in game reflected all the minor little nuances also associated with given effects, since it says right on the vengeance icon that unmitigated damage does nothing to increase vengeance, and you'd think avoiding an attack would be the same as Mitigating it.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  14. #14
    Muezick that's so wrong lol. Avoided hits still grant vengeance just as a normal hit does..

    Savage defense is completly worth it. going from 30% dodge to 70% means you take 42% less hits (Getting hit 30% of the time instead of 70% of the time = 60% less damage taken: (30/70)*100 = 42%) I don't know how you can downplay that just "because i can get hit 2-3 times in a row" Savage defense in sige pretty much has a 100% uptime too because of taunt swaps, since you dont use it when youre not tanking... and you have tons of leftover rage for tooth&claw procs and frenzied regen at your gear level. So, unless you want to sit on your rage waiting for that hit to come in.. you might want to use savage defense. If you have things like agi proc trinkets, when they proc your chance to dodge is so high... you will take minimal hits.

    If you're not using savage defense, you're doing it really, really wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. Would you rather spend 60 rage to avoid 2 hits out of 3 on average, and have rage leftover for tons of heal, or not use it and take 1 hit out of 3? Note that frenzied does a lot of overhealing, and thus rage can be wasted.. and it only works for one hit.


    Also, next expansion has no indication that savage defense is getting changed... it's the same in alpha, we're just getting more HP to compensate and more rage gen. The design for bears seems to be lower damage as much as you can with SD/T&C, heal the rest back up.

  15. #15
    High Overlord keqe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by Muezick View Post
    Hmm, now that you mention it, it seems like I read that some where and Forgot about it Keqe.

    It would be nice if the tool tips in game reflected all the minor little nuances also associated with given effects, since it says right on the vengeance icon that unmitigated damage does nothing to increase vengeance, and you'd think avoiding an attack would be the same as Mitigating it.
    The tooltip means that the vengeance is calculated from Unmitigated damage. Unmitigated damage=damage taken if you wouldn't have armor or passives etc. That means armor and damage reduces don't affect vengeance gain. However it is true that for avoidance the information is very bad as it was only said in an hotifix at start of MoP that avoided white attacks give vengeance.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Muezick that's so wrong lol. Avoided hits still grant vengeance just as a normal hit does..

    Savage defense is completly worth it. going from 30% dodge to 70% means you take 42% less hits (Getting hit 30% of the time instead of 70% of the time = 60% less damage taken: (30/70)*100 = 42%) I don't know how you can downplay that just "because i can get hit 2-3 times in a row" Savage defense in sige pretty much has a 100% uptime too because of taunt swaps, since you dont use it when youre not tanking... and you have tons of leftover rage for tooth&claw procs and frenzied regen at your gear level. So, unless you want to sit on your rage waiting for that hit to come in.. you might want to use savage defense. If you have things like agi proc trinkets, when they proc your chance to dodge is so high... you will take minimal hits.

    If you're not using savage defense, you're doing it really, really wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. Would you rather spend 60 rage to avoid 2 hits out of 3 on average, and have rage leftover for tons of heal, or not use it and take 1 hit out of 3? Note that frenzied does a lot of overhealing, and thus rage can be wasted.. and it only works for one hit.
    You'll have to excuse me, My guild has been working on Heroic Garrosh for months, we put over 600 attempts into killing him. So my brain is a bit fried in general where this game is concerned. I see where you are coming from, and I agree.

    I guess I just got to a point where it felt safer and better to just be able to spam frenzied regen as the rage came in. Because I can use frenzied regen at any rage level, any heal will keep me alive, and my health rarely ever dips below 20%. The over healing is a concern, but not often, since I will never use it when I'm at full health, I will use it when I'm between 50% and 75% health though. I run with a druid and disc priest, so a lot of their healing is hots or smart heals, so I have a good amount of passive hps funneling to me at all times when I am tanking.

    We have a lock out at Heroic Garrosh we're going to use to go for a repeat kill next week. I'm going to give Savage Defense a try, and see if I can break my habit of just spamming Frenzied Regen.



    Also, next expansion has no indication that savage defense is getting changed... it's the same in alpha, we're just getting more HP to compensate and more rage gen. The design for bears seems to be lower damage as much as you can with SD/T&C, heal the rest back up.
    Yeah I thought I read some changes were being made to Savage Defense. But went back and re-read and They're actually just making heavy changes to the mastery, which makes more sense.

    Oi vey I should probably not post when I am tired and sick with a sinus infection.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  17. #17
    When you do garrosh, you can always compare your logs.. Add your taken/healing done between both fights and you'll see the difference. I'm certain there will be a humongous difference in favor of savage defense.

    Overhealing is not really a concern, yea, because you just want to live.. but its still "wasted rage"

    That said, even a 20 rage frenzied regen is quite the crazy heal, so i wouldnt worry about it!

    As for next expac, im really pumped about it. Healers will take awhile to heal you from 0 to full hp, and with our enormous health pool and the loss of our armor bonus, i think we'll take more damage and will actually need to heal ourselves, otherwise healers wont keep up with the healing required..

  18. #18
    This is something I've honestly been curious about.

    It occurred to me recently, that I haven't got a friggin clue how to read and evaluate bear druid logs.


    Do you use warcraftlogs or World of Logs? What do you compare? How do you compare it?

    I mean, you don't need to give me a complete breakdown, but if you don't mind pointing me in the direction of some resources that might help me get started, that would be cool.

    I am vaguely familiar with epeen bot on raidbots, but apparently World of Logs is dying a slow and painful death, and can't really be used propperly for the last three heroic bosses in SoO.


    Do you think this is something I could do with just Skada? I have been more or less using Skada for months now to guestimate my performance. But as I am sure you know, in game combat logs aren't the best.





    I am super excited for the changes next expac too btw. All the bear changes look exciting.
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  19. #19
    Depends what youre looking for, i dont really check out bears... but if you want to compare tanks, check how much damage a bear takes and deduce the amount he healed himself for. I think tooth&claw is not etting properly calculated however.

    Other than that, its a good thing to look at savage defense uptime when actually tanking.

    And it's always good to see if the player has a good rotation, and a healthy amount of mangles during the fight (More or less 1 mangle per 5.5-6sec... since you get procs, depends if the fight permits continuous use of mangle though.)

    Tracking CD usage is also always good... it's also debatable whether its a good idea or not to use barkskin on CD since it can have a 50% uptime.

  20. #20
    Besides, BiS trinkets are Thok Amplification and Immerseus Amplification trinkets.
    This is objectively false.

    Everything else has been pointed out already, but I wanted to correct that statement.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •