Question. Why all this hype over Glad stance?

**Dug** · 2014-05-11, 02:21 AM

The way I see Glad Stance is purely for aesthetics. They say they want to tune it to be in line with Fury/Arm dps so this is for the people that have always wanted to dps with a sword and shield. I welcome Glad stance and I gotta say I'm pretty hype. Can finally go around busting faces with my Bulwark of Azzinoth without having to tank.

**Requiel** · 2014-05-11, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mancowski

It's new. Ravager is just a fancy aoe dot in a way, and ignite weapon is glorified unleash elements.

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What's the glyph doing?

reducing the effectiveness and increasing the duration (13.5 seconds for 40% reduction in armor) and there 20 pages of people bickering about it.

**Luko** · 2014-05-11, 01:05 PM

Too much thinking going on here. Its a gladiator DPS spec, sword and board. Its something many of us have openly desired in every (all) mmos since the birth of the genre.

Now we get to be Achillies or Leonidas or Maximus. Not much more to it than that. I love shields and I dont always want to tank. So yay

**Daagar** · 2014-05-11, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet

Too much thinking going on here. Its a gladiator DPS spec, sword and board. Its something many of us have openly desired in every (all) mmos since the birth of the genre.

Now we get to be Achillies or Leonidas or Maximus. Not much more to it than that. I love shields and I dont always want to tank. So yay

Exactly this. I play an ele shaman right now, and part of that reason is it is the only shield-wearing DPS spec. I'm much too crappy of a player to tank, but this has spurred me to get a warrior leveled up in hopes it is as fun as it seems in my head.

**Cyclonus-WOW** · 2014-05-11, 07:39 PM

Part of the reason everyone keeps bringing it up is they want to generate hype. Doing so lets Blizzard know we love the idea, and that they have plenty of Beta testers on their hands if they wanted them

**Trollragemore** · 2014-05-11, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet

Too much thinking going on here. Its a gladiator DPS spec, sword and board. Its something many of us have openly desired in every (all) mmos since the birth of the genre.

Now we get to be Achillies or Leonidas or Maximus. Not much more to it than that. I love shields and I dont always want to tank. So yay

Screw those examples, Crixus is my hero....

**Archimtiros** · 2014-05-12, 05:55 AM

Reason its coming up is because is is:
1) Interesting/New
2) Fairly easy to implement (as opposed to say a Ranged Paladin DPS or even a Warlock Tank)
3) Doesn't mess up the status quo (we aren't introducing a whole new class, new talents, new passives, new armor or weapon types and it still rolls into Protection Warriors who they share gear with).
4) People like to fantasize about it. And...
5) Makes it easy for people to play it regardless if you like Prot or Glad, if you just want to use a shield, it is a lot easier as a Glad, since you could have many Gladiators in a raid but only a couple Tanks.

#4 I find the funniest because people talk about all these "gladiator" movies and yet... Nothing in those movies really differentiate a "tank" from a "dps". If anything I'd liken them more to tanks because their shields were used almost exclusively for defense, a few Shield bashes (or shield slams if you will) not with standing which is generally used as a stunning move, not a kill move.

But I digress, who am I to shit on someone else's fantasy? If you like to romanticize the idea of a Shield using DPS, go right ahead and enjoy yourself.

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I should add that it is a relatively easy way of adding new playstyles to the game without having to add a new class, spec or completely overhaul a class.

We are very unlikely to see many class changes the size of Warlocks again, too many people dislike massive change (even if its ultimately for the better). So I think any really good, new ideas are likely to be introduced in this manner. In the form of a Glyph, Talent, etc.
I maintain that if Gladiator works out, it could and should easily be turned into a true fourth spec, but even if it doesn't; this is a relatively harmless way to introduce something new without completely f'ing up the already existing specs.

Deleted · 2014-05-12, 06:05 AM

I hate this talent, I get the feeling its gonna push prot warriors into a place where because its so easy for them to go dps literally just a talent swap (as stats will change on gear to accommodate spec) they'll be taken as a 3rd tank who goes dps for fights where only 2 are needed, I saw it a lot in WoTLK with ferals and that bothers me because I rolled tank to play tank. Just because you dont think it'll happen to you doesnt mean its not going to be a reality for a lot of other players.

**Zka** · 2014-05-12, 06:22 AM

I always liked the idea of shield dps. Soo bring on GS!

Also, yeah, the easy "flexibility" is also a strong point and putting out good numbers as prot feels interesting. It was not possible to dps in prot since BC (if not counting vengeance). Back then I even made videos of prot dps, that was sooo fun. Equip dps gear with 2 slow 1handers (I preferred the hyjal fists), switch to berserker stance and hack away with devastate/WW. It was fairly competitive.

**MrKnubbles** · 2014-05-12, 06:23 AM

I'm really hoping they'll do something like this for Prot Paladins.

**Durantye** · 2014-05-12, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Valkyrie264

Guys...calm down. Its just a talent to let tanks swap to dps without needing much more than maybe a couple trinkets and maybe a weapon enchanted differently (depending on the stuff available in WoD)

All I've been seeing is Glad stance this/that blah blah blah.

Are we really more interested in Glad stance over Ravager or Ignite weapon or the other goodies?

I don't understand why all the blue posts I seem to be coming across are related to Gladiator Stance. Are we overthinking it?

It is a very hypocritical thing to implement coming from blizzard who have done things like get rid of Feral druid tanks, destroyed and teased warlocks with tanking the entire expansion, and of course the many changes coming from wrath to cata. So now they are allowing duel usability with prot? It's a little hypocritical and annoying.

**Archimtiros** · 2014-05-12, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by ronocko

I hate this talent, I get the feeling its gonna push prot warriors into a place where because its so easy for them to go dps literally just a talent swap (as stats will change on gear to accommodate spec) they'll be taken as a 3rd tank who goes dps for fights where only 2 are needed, I saw it a lot in WoTLK with ferals and that bothers me because I rolled tank to play tank. Just because you dont think it'll happen to you doesnt mean its not going to be a reality for a lot of other players.

That really strikes me as a guild issue more than anything else. I understand the concern though. I think it was worse for Ferals because the could dynamically changed during combat.

I feel I should elaborate. I feel it is a guild issue because it really depends on your place in your guild, its roster and their idea of how multi role classes should be handled. There really is no solution and you aren't the only people affected by it.
I say this because I do not believe it to be a much bigger issue than dual spec classes to begin with.
Blood DK's have very slightly different gearing than DPS, with the exception of dw Frost vs 2h Blood and a runeforge swap. The same can be said for Monks and Druids.

Even for Warriors and Paladins, after the first couple of weeks most guilds have no problem starting to gear out an alternate tank, lower difficulties do this as well. Very rarely does a third tank actually need competitive tanking gear, they just need to be able to taunt and not be Crit.
WoD changes will make it even easier because gear will be so dynamic and shared between classes. Perfect min-maxing not withstanding, the same stats you'd use as a Fury Warrior will benefit you as a Prot Warrior.

This doesn't even begin to touch on bench roster, etc. No guild actually runs with 10/25 people. They do have extra people who do get in for gear, because they need to be competitive to fill open spots in a raid.

TLDR: Unless you have a really controlling guild, I wouldn't see it as a huge problem because I don't believe it to be very much easier for a Glad than for many others. I firmly believe a well run guild will be able to handle this easily and players that do not want to be Gladiators will not be forced into the role. As a Prot Warrior, you may have to sit in a 1 tank fight, but you were already doing that before.

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Originally Posted by Durantye

It is a very hypocritical thing to implement coming from blizzard who have done things like get rid of Feral druid tanks, destroyed and teased warlocks with tanking the entire expansion, and of course the many changes coming from wrath to cata. So now they are allowing duel usability with prot? It's a little hypocritical and annoying.

This is not true at all and taken out of context.

Feral Tanks were dynamic, they could perform both roles during combat. Now they cannot. For all intents and purposes there is no difference between Feral-Guardian and Glad-Prot because they now both work the same. If anything Druids have the upper hand because they have two distinct specs.
Clarification: You post makes it seem like you are not aware that Gladiators cannot Tank at all, and cannot swap to Defensive Stance (and thus become a tank) during Combat. Really the only difference between Feral-Guardian and Glad-Prot is that one is a stance change (out of combat) and the other is a spec change (out of combat).

Warlock tanks I cant speak on completely, because I do not play one; but I can say with 100% certainty that it is easier to make a Tank into a DPS than to make a DPS into a Tank. I am less certain but believe that there are at current more than enough variations of tank for the need at the moment as well, but that is more a personal observation than the first educated guess above.

Lastly, I do not understand what you mean by changes coming from Wrath to Cata so you would have to elaborate.

**Durantye** · 2014-05-12, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Archimtiros

This is not true at all and taken out of context.

Feral Tanks were dynamic, they could perform both roles during combat. Now they cannot. For all intents and purposes there is no difference between Feral-Guardian and Glad-Prot because they now both work the same. If anything Druids have the upper hand because they have two distinct specs.
Clarification: You post makes it seem like you are not aware that Gladiators cannot Tank at all, and cannot swap to Defensive Stance (and thus become a tank) during Combat. Really the only difference between Feral-Guardian and Glad-Prot is that one is a stance change (out of combat) and the other is a spec change (out of combat).

Warlock tanks I cant speak on completely, because I do not play one; but I can say with 100% certainty that it is easier to make a Tank into a DPS than to make a DPS into a Tank. I am less certain but believe that there are at current more than enough variations of tank for the need at the moment as well, but that is more a personal observation than the first educated guess above.

Lastly, I do not understand what you mean by changes coming from Wrath to Cata so you would have to elaborate.

I do seem to have mistunderstood, but the point remains that if they are refusing to allow warlocks to tank and forcing druids to have seperate specs for tanking and now giving warriors a new 'dps spec' that is completely unnecessary and unneeded. If there are plenty of tank variations in game then there is 2-3 times that in dps variations.

Warlocks are literally an inch away from tanking you can watch Sparkuggz on his youtube as he shows warlocks can tank current content and even cmodes at the moment. I am fine with warlocks not getting to tank but not fine with us being told 'no we won't turn a dps spec into a tank but we will allow these sweet warriors to dps in a tank spec'.

**Bryntrollian** · 2014-05-12, 07:41 AM

Because, I've always wanted to do competitive dps with a sword and shield. Reminds of me Wrath when I could one shot mages with my shield slam...

**Requiel** · 2014-05-12, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Durantye

I do seem to have mistunderstood, but the point remains that if they are refusing to allow warlocks to tank and forcing druids to have seperate specs for tanking and now giving warriors a new 'dps spec' that is completely unnecessary and unneeded. If there are plenty of tank variations in game then there is 2-3 times that in dps variations.

Warlocks are literally an inch away from tanking you can watch Sparkuggz on his youtube as he shows warlocks can tank current content and even cmodes at the moment. I am fine with warlocks not getting to tank but not fine with us being told 'no we won't turn a dps spec into a tank but we will allow these sweet warriors to dps in a tank spec'.

It makes sense for druid to have two specs since they play like two different specs, glad plays like prot and does dps. going from dps to tank is a lot harder to balance and implement than a tank to DPS (warlocks aren't an inch away from being a competitive tank).

Deleted · 2014-05-12, 07:55 AM

Shields have been used on dps classes for a long time in RPGs, it's nice to finally have it in WoW.

**Breccia** · 2014-05-12, 07:29 PM

I'm just stoked for that 5% DR. As a tank for life, it seems like the clear winner. I will probably never DPS in it -- I have no faith in Blizz's ability to balance the numbers of a glyph-added sub-spec.

**Durantye** · 2014-05-12, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Requiel

It makes sense for druid to have two specs since they play like two different specs, glad plays like prot and does dps. going from dps to tank is a lot harder to balance and implement than a tank to DPS (warlocks aren't an inch away from being a competitive tank).

That isn't the point, you don't think prot tanking and prot dps won't play differently? The point is they've refused to give others the opportunity to tank/dps in a certain spec (Hello death knights) yet now they are letting prot warriors? And yes warlocks literally only require a couple more abilties and tuning and they would be viable tanks.

Also the only way balancing a tank into dps is easier is if they don't bother with making sure it is balanced in every scenario, so it'll either suck so bad that it is literally useless, it'll be broken as shit, or it'll be just like demonology was for warlocks this tier, not horrendous but literally no reason to play it.

**Archimtiros** · 2014-05-12, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Durantye

That isn't the point, you don't think prot tanking and prot dps won't play differently? The point is they've refused to give others the opportunity to tank/dps in a certain spec (Hello death knights) yet now they are letting prot warriors? And yes warlocks literally only require a couple more abilties and tuning and they would be viable tanks.

Also the only way balancing a tank into dps is easier is if they don't bother with making sure it is balanced in every scenario, so it'll either suck so bad that it is literally useless, it'll be broken as shit, or it'll be just like demonology was for warlocks this tier, not horrendous but literally no reason to play it.

It is a first iteration. Glad isn't even formally out yet, or even finished honestly, and they are already talking about the possibility of adding Blood DPS and other roles again.
I think your resentment comes down to the fact that Warriors are getting this "first" and other classes are not, which is understandable when you are not the first class to get it, but that doesn't take away from Gladiator. It's a design decision by the devs to see how well this plays out before implementing it further.

I could easily take your argument and compare it to the "class quest chain" in which Warlocks got green fire, but Warriors haven't had anything special in years.

I'm not trying to belittle your argument, but I think you need patience and need to understand that they do not want to implement this across multiple different classes all at once and prefer to go one at a time.

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Also the balancing is harder than you think.

I think Arms was in a worse spot than Demo this tier, and it has been the underdog the entire expansion. Marks hunters suffer similarly.

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Originally Posted by Durantye

I do seem to have mistunderstood, but the point remains that if they are refusing to allow warlocks to tank and forcing druids to have seperate specs for tanking and now giving warriors a new 'dps spec' that is completely unnecessary and unneeded. If there are plenty of tank variations in game then there is 2-3 times that in dps variations.

Warlocks are literally an inch away from tanking you can watch Sparkuggz on his youtube as he shows warlocks can tank current content and even cmodes at the moment. I am fine with warlocks not getting to tank but not fine with us being told 'no we won't turn a dps spec into a tank but we will allow these sweet warriors to dps in a tank spec'.

You think it was that they weren't quite ready to add warlock tanks because they would require many different mechanics? IE: Warlocks don't use Armor, so bonus armor would need to be turned into something else and balanced, Warlock tanks would very likely find ways to kite/tank from range and that would require a whole host of oversight to keep it from becoming broken. They are already retuning all tanks to get defensive benefits from dps stats, so Warlocks would need to be included. I'm just guessing here really, but I guarantee there is a reason.
I honestly can't speak for certain but you really don't believe the answer is as simple as "because we don't want to" do you? People seem to forget that the devs are actual people, I've met a number in real life and these guys are super nerds (in a good way!) they literally live and breathe this game, and others of its ilk. A surprising number of them are high end raiders, in more well known guilds than you'd think, and they really do have a pretty good grasp on the game and how things are percieved by the players. Doesn't mean every idea is a winner, but you really can't be serious when you make statements like this. That the devs just fuck with you because they can? It's laughable.

Again regarding Druids, there really is no difference, aside that currently Gladiators are a sub-spec instead of a whole different spec. For all intents and purposes it works exactly the same way.
Really it would have been way too confusing to keep feral and Guardian in one spec because they operate completely differently, use completely different abilities and even different resources (rage/energy/CPs).
Prot and Glad are very similar. I still maintain I believe Gladiator could become an actual spec some day, but it isn't instantaneous. There is a learning curve for both us and the designers, to get everything right and make sure it is worth having as an actual no shit specialization, like they decided Feral tanking was after the fiasco that was Wrath/Cataclysm.

**Requiel** · 2014-05-13, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Durantye

That isn't the point, you don't think prot tanking and prot dps won't play differently? The point is they've refused to give others the opportunity to tank/dps in a certain spec (Hello death knights) yet now they are letting prot warriors? And yes warlocks literally only require a couple more abilties and tuning and they would be viable tanks.

Also the only way balancing a tank into dps is easier is if they don't bother with making sure it is balanced in every scenario, so it'll either suck so bad that it is literally useless, it'll be broken as shit, or it'll be just like demonology was for warlocks this tier, not horrendous but literally no reason to play it.

different in terms of rotation and a few abilities changing then yes it is different. but it uses the same core abilities I.E. devastate, shield slam, revenge. where as druid had different resources and shared only a few abilities (mangle). someone has to be the first.

as for an inch away from tanking: