Soaking Annihilates on Garrosh 10N

[Deleted]

It's not free. It comes at the expense of your healer's mana. even if it's just a little

No, it really does not.

You use CDs to take reduced damage and get more vengenace for more self healing. Why would it take more mana for healers?

[Deleted]

Healer mana hasn't been an issue in SoO. The only real cost would be the risk of dying.

healers can still go oom if thats what youre talking about. plus thats one GCD wasted on you that could have been used topping someone else off who actually might need it. you're wasting the healers GCDs and their mana

[Frozendekay]

It's not free. It comes at the expense of your healer's mana. even if it's just a little

So free dps, got it.

Nothing can really go wrong with this unless you make a rather large mistake. Plan it out properly. Ensure you have proper CD coverage. Get externals if you need them, it's entirely worth it. Monitor your health and be ready to use Healthstones. They will be back up when you need them again. After all that, if you think an annihilate might be risky simply don't stand in it! Tanks vengeance a little but you also didn't die.

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healers can still go oom if thats what youre talking about. plus thats one GCD wasted on you that could have been used topping someone else off who actually might need it. you're wasting the healers GCDs and their mana

If you're choosing to get trucked while your raid is dying you have other issues as a tank. Obviously you're not going to want to take some extra damage if your healers can barely keep up.

[Snuzzfizzle]

healers can still go oom if thats what youre talking about. plus thats one GCD wasted on you that could have been used topping someone else off who actually might need it. you're wasting the healers GCDs and their mana

Are you sure you're clearing current Heroic content?
I can't recall a time throughout the whole of SoO when a healer told me: Sorry, can't do that, I'm out of mana.

[Deleted]

Are you sure you're clearing current Heroic content?
I can't recall a time throughout the whole of SoO when a healer told me: Sorry, can't do that, I'm out of mana.

im sure

"hymph of hope for me" or "i am low on mana" i hear this all the time, what are you saying. smart healers see when they are low and tune down their healing to reserve mana. however they cant do that when a tank is blindly, idotically taking extreme unnesccary damage for a what? 10 second faster boss kill. give me a break.

[Frozendekay]

im sure

"hymph of hope for me" or "i am low on mana" i hear this all the time, what are you saying. smart healers see when they are low and tune down their healing to reserve mana. however they cant do that when a tank is blindly, idotically taking extreme unnesccary damage for a what? 10 second faster boss kill. give me a break.

Yea, healers generally take breaks in Annihilate phases.

Also, that 10 seconds might mean you skip an EWC. Seems worth it for healer mana if that's really your issue.

[Sonnillon]

Try to stay on topic. Whether or not healers have the mana or not, is not part of the discussion. OP asked what skills/CDs are needed/useful to have up for his tanking class(es).

[Deleted]

im sure

"hymph of hope for me" or "i am low on mana" i hear this all the time, what are you saying. smart healers see when they are low and tune down their healing to reserve mana. however they cant do that when a tank is blindly, idotically taking extreme unnesccary damage for a what? 10 second faster boss kill. give me a break.

You again and again exhibit with your every post that you have no idea how either tank damage in-take, healers and raid dps works.
Your entire post just makes absolutely no sense. Neither tanks or healers give a flying pig shit about damage taken.
The reason that healers call for mana CDs is because they know they got them so they know they can spam more, not because they could not live without them.

In either case, the tank will be using CDs so I really do not understand where you are coming from.

[Deleted]

kind of a stupid idea. you dont need to soak it, so why would you? if youre dps are that bad to the point where a tanks needs to soak annihilates to cover the dps than you really need to replace your terrible dps

rofl, did i really just get infracted for this. this morderator is a joke, just go ahead a finish me off. ill find a better site to post on that doesnt have a clueless cant kill h shammies moderator whos armory gives no credibility in raiding to infract someone for "misinformation" on raiding when they clearly dont know shit themselves.

lol give me a break

[Anzen]

<snip>

I'd edit this out and take some time to cool off.

[Deleted]

Icando. You really have no grounds to call anyone clueless regarding raiding when everything you said in this thread has been completely inaccurate.
To be honest you are the one coming of as clueless and I severly doubt you have done any serious raiding at all.

A personal attack towards the moderators seems unwarranted.

[Sodia]

Soaking all of the annihilates give like 400k veng on NM, on heroic it's basically a necessity for tanks (the 600k+ veng really helps pushing the dps). Rook's active works on annihilate too if you are struggling with the damage.

But why do you need that much of DPS on him if you do him on HC now then i'm 100% sure you ar overgearing him by a loot and you dont actualy need that much of a DPS on this fight to begin with so why ? i Tough healers have a loot to do in thous realms especialy on 25 h . I dont see any resons to push your luck in there.

[Razecog]

But why do you need that much of DPS on him if you do him on HC now then i'm 100% sure you ar overgearing him by a loot and you dont actualy need that much of a DPS on this fight to begin with so why ? i Tough healers have a loot to do in thous realms especialy on 25 h . I dont see any resons to push your luck in there.

With that high vengeance you bascially keep yourself alive.

[bals]

plus more dps = possibly less transition phases which will be better for healers overall

[Sodia]

You again and again exhibit with your every post that you have no idea how either tank damage in-take, healers and raid dps works.
Your entire post just makes absolutely no sense. Neither tanks or healers give a flying pig shit about damage taken.
The reason that healers call for mana CDs is because they know they got them so they know they can spam more, not because they could not live without them.

In either case, the tank will be using CDs so I really do not understand where you are coming from.

Well his point is that if you ar already in Garosh HC you dont need to push your luck with things like that.For example if for some reson someone mis the buf healers already need to focus on him and then the tank dies cos of extra damage .If you push thous realms in a proper time then you dont need extra dps , if you dont then there is a DPS problem .

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With that high vengeance you bascially keep yourself alive.

I dont know how hard it hits on 10m but on 25 he 1 shot everyone that dont have the buff not stending in the cone!!! i assume that the cone hit for 5 times this .

[Saybel]

Just going to address a few concerns about why I'm playing the way I'm playing in the Heart Phase, to clear the matter up.

During Heart Phase, if you manage to soak the Annihilates, your DPS basically doubles - I go from doing about 350k~ sustained to a peak of 700k+, which translates into a lot of DPS over a 30~ sec period (700k * 30 = roughly 20 million boss damage, compared to doing less than 5 million with no veng) considering he has 419M hp in 10 normal, I'm doing an extra 7% of the bosses' HP in damage because I choose to do this.

I'm sure any dps would jump at the chance to do an extra 30 million damage by using their cooldowns intelligently (while this usage of CD isn't intelligent, you get my point)

Soaking Annihilate keeps your vengeance up on a decent level during the realm. But all the times I've stood in it to keep mine up, I never got above 170-190k, up from 80-100k which I usually have in the transition realm. Don't seem it being worth it actually, not me at least. Solo tanking you run keeps your DPS high enough.

I tank with my guardian and when I decide to soak, I have the realm's buff + 40% reduction from SI. And at 1.2 mil I'm walking away with roughly 30-40% of my HP.

I end up with 600k~ by the final 2-3 annihilates.

Soaking all of the annihilates give like 400k veng on NM, on heroic it's basically a necessity for tanks (the 600k+ veng really helps pushing the dps). Rook's active works on annihilate too if you are struggling with the damage.

I'm not struggling persay, I would just like to work out an efficient cooldown order instead of wasting personals or externals I could use somewhere else because I'm nervous

A couple of things on the matter:

1. The DPS you get from this is so negligible to kill normal it's fairly ridiculous to risk killing yourself and probably wiping the raid for. You'll do what a couple thousand extra DPS across the whole fight?
2. I watch friends/guild tanks/PuG's die to this relentlessly, and it gets old really quickly. Again, it's a really silly idea to try to take over 1 million hits to do fractionally more DPS.
3. DK's can soak it without cooldowns as long as you have Bone Shield and the Protectors trinket up. It's kinda sketchy though since you'll have to be at 100% hp when you do it.

My advice: don't soak!

EDIT: The tanking cloak has a limit on the damage it will absorb from what I've seen (I don't know what it is).

I've heard before it won't proc off Annihilate nor the 15M hit from Mandokir. I'd imagine it's limit is the users Maximum HP, but this is just speculation.

The damage is absolutely far from trivial, it aids greatly in pushing Phase 2 before we get any EWC's

Use Rooks Talisman (the on use effect) if you don't have enough of your own cooldowns/externals to soak . You can also use it for whirls if you really want to.

Changing skeer's out to soak maybe 1-2 more Annihilates would probably a DPS loss, and I have cooldowns for Whirling Corruption anyway so it's not an issue

The single most important thing is that you need to soak every annihilate. Due to how vengeance works your vengeance will drop a lot if you skip soaking one.
Since you are solo tanking the value of this is also diminished since as soon as you get out of the realm the boss will hit you which will again lower your vengeance.

Anyhow, if you can soak reliably, do it. If you cant, dont do it.

I screw up maybe 1/15 tries on the Annihilates, so well worth it for the raid DMG imo, after I dissect the information from this thread correctly I shouldn't mess up at all, however.

kind of a stupid idea. you dont need to soak it, so why would you? if youre dps are that bad to the point where a tanks needs to soak annihilates to cover the dps than you really need to replace your terrible dps

If you do not know the context of the group then you shouldn't make such bold statements.

We run Garrosh for looms 6-8x weekly on all manner of alts, some runs have lower DPS than others because some alts are worse geared or not, we try to spread them so we don't have absolutely awful runs but extra DPS never hurts since pushing the boss into P3 before you get an EWC makes the fight vastly smoother.

I won't kick my friends for coming on their alts, because sometimes my alts get carried too. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to do some extra damage for a low cost, anyway.

That said, and like someone else has said in this thread, I don't personally agree on a tank trying to soak all the annihilates unless he is comfortable with it. If there is even the slight chance you might die doing it, don't bother.

Let's say I'm comfortable enough with standing in them, I just could be more efficient with CD usage.

It's not free. It comes at the expense of your healer's mana. even if it's just a little

It doesn't cost healer mana - I get topped off by HoTs and AoE healing that would be on me anyway. I have sufficient self-healing on both Monk and DK to pick myself up to atleast 60-70% (and SBarrier can absorb a huge portion of it on Warrior), which is where the rest of the group are in hp %, and we all get topped before the next Annihilate.

healers can still go oom if thats what youre talking about. plus thats one GCD wasted on you that could have been used topping someone else off who actually might need it. you're wasting the healers GCDs and their mana

It's GCDs they would of used anyway - probably causes less overhealing, if anything. I'm always being healed by at least 1 healer I know, so they know not to panic if they see me drop to 10% because I'll pick myself.

Take your warrior
1.75m x .75(dstance) x .8(demo shout) = 1.05m hits + Last stand and minimal shield barriers and you can die(if you have low HP an external)
Now if you have Shield Wall instead of demo shout you obviously are gonna take a lot less dmg change .8 from demo to .5 for shield wall and you ger 656,250 dmg now you can see you can't even die with just that up.

Its pretty easy to calc its dmg.

Thank you, this is exactly what I needed, so basically I can roll with;

Demo + Last Stand
Shield Wall
SBar for the last few

If I'm correct in thinking, as long as I have my own CD up (or my SBar is absorbing around my maximum HP) I should be able to stand in them without an external. Means I can use them outside of the Heart to take a bit less damage. I guess I should take a 20% reduction external (i.e Sac, Ironbark) with the SBars perhaps, so I can be 100% sure I'll be topped for the next Annihilate?

[Razecog]

I dont know how hard it hits on 10m but on 25 he 1 shot everyone that dont have the buff not stending in the cone!!! i assume that the cone hit for 5 times this .

He hits for the same in both 10 and 25. 700k raidwide AoE and 3.5m in a cone. And if you get oneshot by 700k then you're doing something very wrong.

[Deleted]

Well his point is that if you ar already in Garosh HC you dont need to push your luck with things like that.For example if for some reson someone mis the buf healers already need to focus on him and then the tank dies cos of extra damage .If you push thous realms in a proper time then you dont need extra dps , if you dont then there is a DPS problem .

I dont know how hard it hits on 10m but on 25 he 1 shot everyone that dont have the buff not stending in the cone!!! i assume that the cone hit for 5 times this .

The problem is that his entire point has no grounds.
First off you will be using CDs so you will barely take any more damage.
Secondly, you get so much vengeance that you basically keep yourself alive. You will not die because you take any extra damage and you will not require a single extra heal either. That is the entire basis of this argument that people have absolutely no idea how tank healing and tank damage in-take works. You will not need extra heals for standing in annihilates and the only risk of dying is bad CD planning.

Same goes with the DPS argument. Just because a group got enough gear to down a boss does not mean they are utilizing their classes. You dont say in threads of people asking for Garrosh HC help "You got above 565 average, L2P" or people asking for help about siegecrafter heroic "You got above 550 average just play your class good".

If he can do anything to help his raid, then he should. Saying that "DPSers should fix the dps problem" is a very single minded point of view. If he as a tank can also solve the dps problem then why not? A tank doing 100k extra dps or a dps doing 100k extra dps is the same for the raid. In current raid design DPS is just as much a healer and tank problem as it is dpsers.

There is also the possibility of him being far better than the players he play with, which is what it sounds like considering he plays in pugs with alts. In ToT I raided with a raid team that if I look at it without bias, I was miles and miles beyond everyone else in that raid team in terms of class throughput and raiding skills. I got more rank 1s in that tier than the entire raid got ranks at all, our world of log ranks were 95% mine. Now of course that does not matter, I enjoyed playing with them and I had a lot of fun. Instead of asking the others to step up, I looked to further improve myself. Being a tank I could often off-set the dps we lacked. Just because our dpsers did not perform as they should did not mean I could go the extra mile and push out more dps.
As it is in his scenario, it is not realistic to expect pugs to perform at a high level. If he is a great player then he can perform at 110% to off-set the other players therefor helping to get the kill.

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I screw up maybe 1/15 tries on the Annihilates, so well worth it for the raid DMG imo, after I dissect the information from this thread correctly I shouldn't mess up at all, however.

1/15 tries is in my opinon too much. You should try lowering that number. More than 1/100 is really too much.
We had about 260 wipes on Garrosh Heroic and I never died once to annihilate even though I soaked it every time. I died once when experimenting when it was already a wipe though but I do not really count that as it was only 5 people alive at the time.

1/15 is a way to high chance to die in my opinion for that gain, but as you said, with better CDs you should be able to bring that down.

[Saybel]

1/15 tries is in my opinon too much. You should try lowering that number. More than 1/100 is really too much.
We had about 260 wipes on Garrosh Heroic and I never died once to annihilate even though I soaked it every time. I died once when experimenting when it was already a wipe though but I do not really count that as it was only 5 people alive at the time.

1/15 is a way to high chance to die in my opinion for that gain, but as you said, with better CDs you should be able to bring that down.

It's probably too much for organized raiding - but in the context of our groups I die about once every 2 weeks to my own mistake (which is far less than other people's mistakes cost us), and usually that's because I get a bit edgy about whether I should use something or not and overextend. That's why this thread - I can soak all of them, but I just need to organize inside my head how I'm doing it.

Though, it is my own fault dying, so I know I should play better. I'm relatively new to tanking, started about 2~ months ago after being full time DPS for 5 years. I am carrying my groups more or less, but I would rather fix my own problems before fixing other people's, since I can guarantee I won't fail if I know -exactly- what I'm doing, and I can't say the same for them.

[RelaxedFM]

As many posters have said previously, you just want to try balance CDs so you can survive each smash without a cape proc.

If you rely on cape proc to do a soak, you should probably just get a bit more gear before trying to vengeance whore slams :P.

I have yet to do HM garrosh, but normal wise, you do not need to soak cleaves (Or atleast, you gain no major benefit aside from some dps that should not really be needed). However, if you have the gear for it (Id say 560ish +), no reason not to try! And to the people QQing about how tanks shouldn't be doing it, vengeance is a major part of tank game play atm (Especially in tightly tuned DPS fights). Saying a tank shouldn't take advantage of it is like saying a DPS should not use a raid CD!