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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    Well his point is that if you ar already in Garosh HC you dont need to push your luck with things like that.For example if for some reson someone mis the buf healers already need to focus on him and then the tank dies cos of extra damage .If you push thous realms in a proper time then you dont need extra dps , if you dont then there is a DPS problem .

    I dont know how hard it hits on 10m but on 25 he 1 shot everyone that dont have the buff not stending in the cone!!! i assume that the cone hit for 5 times this .
    The problem is that his entire point has no grounds.
    First off you will be using CDs so you will barely take any more damage.
    Secondly, you get so much vengeance that you basically keep yourself alive. You will not die because you take any extra damage and you will not require a single extra heal either. That is the entire basis of this argument that people have absolutely no idea how tank healing and tank damage in-take works. You will not need extra heals for standing in annihilates and the only risk of dying is bad CD planning.

    Same goes with the DPS argument. Just because a group got enough gear to down a boss does not mean they are utilizing their classes. You dont say in threads of people asking for Garrosh HC help "You got above 565 average, L2P" or people asking for help about siegecrafter heroic "You got above 550 average just play your class good".

    If he can do anything to help his raid, then he should. Saying that "DPSers should fix the dps problem" is a very single minded point of view. If he as a tank can also solve the dps problem then why not? A tank doing 100k extra dps or a dps doing 100k extra dps is the same for the raid. In current raid design DPS is just as much a healer and tank problem as it is dpsers.

    There is also the possibility of him being far better than the players he play with, which is what it sounds like considering he plays in pugs with alts. In ToT I raided with a raid team that if I look at it without bias, I was miles and miles beyond everyone else in that raid team in terms of class throughput and raiding skills. I got more rank 1s in that tier than the entire raid got ranks at all, our world of log ranks were 95% mine. Now of course that does not matter, I enjoyed playing with them and I had a lot of fun. Instead of asking the others to step up, I looked to further improve myself. Being a tank I could often off-set the dps we lacked. Just because our dpsers did not perform as they should did not mean I could go the extra mile and push out more dps.
    As it is in his scenario, it is not realistic to expect pugs to perform at a high level. If he is a great player then he can perform at 110% to off-set the other players therefor helping to get the kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxyqt View Post
    I screw up maybe 1/15 tries on the Annihilates, so well worth it for the raid DMG imo, after I dissect the information from this thread correctly I shouldn't mess up at all, however.
    1/15 tries is in my opinon too much. You should try lowering that number. More than 1/100 is really too much.
    We had about 260 wipes on Garrosh Heroic and I never died once to annihilate even though I soaked it every time. I died once when experimenting when it was already a wipe though but I do not really count that as it was only 5 people alive at the time.

    1/15 is a way to high chance to die in my opinion for that gain, but as you said, with better CDs you should be able to bring that down.
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  2. #42
    High Overlord Mizuisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    1/15 tries is in my opinon too much. You should try lowering that number. More than 1/100 is really too much.
    We had about 260 wipes on Garrosh Heroic and I never died once to annihilate even though I soaked it every time. I died once when experimenting when it was already a wipe though but I do not really count that as it was only 5 people alive at the time.

    1/15 is a way to high chance to die in my opinion for that gain, but as you said, with better CDs you should be able to bring that down.
    It's probably too much for organized raiding - but in the context of our groups I die about once every 2 weeks to my own mistake (which is far less than other people's mistakes cost us), and usually that's because I get a bit edgy about whether I should use something or not and overextend. That's why this thread - I can soak all of them, but I just need to organize inside my head how I'm doing it.

    Though, it is my own fault dying, so I know I should play better. I'm relatively new to tanking, started about 2~ months ago after being full time DPS for 5 years. I am carrying my groups more or less, but I would rather fix my own problems before fixing other people's, since I can guarantee I won't fail if I know -exactly- what I'm doing, and I can't say the same for them.

  3. #43
    Keyboard Turner RelaxedFM's Avatar
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    As many posters have said previously, you just want to try balance CDs so you can survive each smash without a cape proc.

    If you rely on cape proc to do a soak, you should probably just get a bit more gear before trying to vengeance whore slams :P.

    I have yet to do HM garrosh, but normal wise, you do not need to soak cleaves (Or atleast, you gain no major benefit aside from some dps that should not really be needed). However, if you have the gear for it (Id say 560ish +), no reason not to try! And to the people QQing about how tanks shouldn't be doing it, vengeance is a major part of tank game play atm (Especially in tightly tuned DPS fights). Saying a tank shouldn't take advantage of it is like saying a DPS should not use a raid CD!

  4. #44
    I'll add that we have been 1 tank / 1 heal (to emphasize that it is not stressful) heroic, and since we started with this, our prot warrior tank has always soaked every annihilate with maybe one external and his own cooldowns. And I never have to throw a single direct heal at him in the transition because of the vengeance he gets (he can easily sustain himself). It might not be as easy on other tanks, and it may not make sense for your raid to do it, but to say it stresses out a healer is pretty much false if it is done right in the correct circumstances.

    BUT, remember that normal mode annihilate hits for the same amount as heroic does for the actual cone portion (3.5 million). Of course, the non-cone portion hits only for 360k on normal (as opposed to 700k on heroic) but that part doesn't matter because its the cone portion that matters which is the same in heroic/normal. Thus, if you are truly undergeared or you are going through on normal, it may not be as easy and may not be possible because being at 575 ilvl and doing this is quite a bit different than being at 550 ilvl.


    But once you reach that point, it all comes down to how you use your cooldowns and at that point (at least as a warrior) you should not be stressing your healer(s) out.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Soaking Annihilate keeps your vengeance up on a decent level during the realm. But all the times I've stood in it to keep mine up, I never got above 170-190k, up from 80-100k which I usually have in the transition realm. Don't seem it being worth it actually, not me at least. Solo tanking you run keeps your DPS high enough.

    I tank with my guardian and when I decide to soak, I have the realm's buff + 40% reduction from SI. And at 1.2 mil I'm walking away with roughly 30-40% of my HP.
    Welcome to some time ago when Blizz disabled Vengeance from AoE, like standing in fire... . With the exception of Proving Grounds and Challenge Modes.

    Because of that soaking annihilates is just dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by warcraftmew View Post
    This is what a blizz blue said about charge and also they are putting pummel and disrupting shout on the same DR seriously blizzard its hard enough as a warrior to beat casters [...]
    in patch 5.4...

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    This purely comes down to your Healers and you being aware of the situation.

    If your healers have no issue at all, go for it, it won't hit that hard, and will help you maintain an alright amount of Vengeance. That said, be warned, if something goes wrong and you take another hit, you might end up dead, or wasting a Raid Cooldown.

    Just talk with your Healers, see what they think, but remember; You don't need to do this. Risking a wipe for this is stupid, if you can do it safely, sure, but you're already killing it, and this'll only speed it up at best, by ~20 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    Because of that soaking annihilates is just dumb.
    Sorry, when? I get Vengeance from standing in Annihilate.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    Welcome to some time ago when Blizz disabled Vengeance from AoE, like standing in fire... . With the exception of Proving Grounds and Challenge Modes.

    Because of that soaking annihilates is just dumb.
    U wot m8. You get retardedly high vengeance from soaking annihilates.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    Welcome to some time ago when Blizz disabled Vengeance from AoE, like standing in fire... . With the exception of Proving Grounds and Challenge Modes.

    Because of that soaking annihilates is just dumb.
    I can tell you with 100% certainty soaking them gives vengeance. I sit at about 650K AP if I soak them and ~200k if I don't.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    Welcome to some time ago when Blizz disabled Vengeance from AoE, like standing in fire... . With the exception of Proving Grounds and Challenge Modes.

    Because of that soaking annihilates is just dumb.
    They removed it from ticking ground AoE mainly. The puddles on Lei Shen were the main reason it got changed at the time. Annihilates still give Vengeance because it's a single large hit.

    Try doing your research before making posts like that.
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