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  1. #141
    and you know that because?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    and you know that because?
    Know what? About cloak being special case or about packets or server-side processing or what?

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What contradictions????? What? I don't even...



    It doesn't work like that. How many times do I have to explain it. Player X targets player Y and presses HoJ. Client for player X sends the server a packet. The server processes that packet and informs clients for both players (and other players in the area) about that. It's at that time when client for player Y gets to know that player X cast a HoJ on it. Not earlier. The server has a chance to do the checks before everybody else but the caster knows about that cast. Period.
    But it just can't do this, I causes to many problems, here's another example of why.

    Bearing in mind we have agreed that cast time spells and instant spells are classified as the same.

    Player X casts chaos bolt on player Y, cast time 4s. Server registers start of cast, rolls for miss, as you [email protected] into the cast as player X has 100ms, server registers hit and waits for cast success. Player Y @3.5s into the cast puts up ams, before the cast has finished and we know from game mechanics it will be absorbed, so therefore ANOTHER roll for miss must occur AFTER success.

    My question to you is what's the point in this scenario of rolling before the spell registers success as the hit data is wrong when success occurs and how does the server know that the hit data is incorrect without rolling again?

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    But it just can't do this, I causes to many problems, here's another example of why.

    Bearing in mind we have agreed that cast time spells and instant spells are classified as the same.

    Player X casts chaos bolt on player Y, cast time 4s. Server registers start of cast, rolls for miss, as you [email protected] into the cast as player X has 100ms, server registers hit and waits for cast success. Player Y @3.5s into the cast puts up ams, before the cast has finished and we know from game mechanics it will be absorbed, so therefore ANOTHER roll for miss must occur AFTER success.

    My question to you is what's the point in this scenario of rolling before the spell registers success as the hit data is wrong when success occurs and how does the server know that the hit data is incorrect without rolling again?
    No, no, no, I am not saying that the server checks whether chaos bolt will land at the moment it starts casting. That spell has a cast time, the server knows it, so, of course, it will do the checks for that spell at the cast END, not start. That's what the semantics of a spell with the cast time are, too.

    But in the case of an instant-cast spell, the server knows that there is no cast time, and it can do the checks for that spell the instant it gets the "I cast a spell" packet.

    That instant-cast spells and spells with non-zero cast time are stored in the same tables, generate similar events and produce similar entries in the combat log mean nothing. All these things are client-only. The server view of what's going on is different.
    Last edited by rda; 2014-05-17 at 07:53 AM.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, no, no, I am not saying that the server checks whether chaos bolt will land at the moment it starts casting. That spell has a cast time, the server knows it, so, of course, it will do the checks for that spell at the cast END, not start. That's what the semantics of a spell with the cast time are, too.

    But in the case of an instant-cast spell, the server knows that there is no cast time, and it can do the checks for that spell the instant it gets the "I cast a spell" packet.

    That instant-cast spells and spells with non-zero cast time are stored in the same tables, generate similar events and produce similar entries in the combat log mean nothing. All these things are client-only. The server view of what's going on is different.

    Good, Glad you said that, they can't be client only, as no bot program would ever work in pvp.

    When you cast a spell a human player reacts by reflecting/cloaking/amsing as they visually see that cast time/animation.

    A bot uses code, it's not sat in front of your monitor watching tidy plates! Therefore that information must hit the server the instant you begin to cast ANY spell otherwise the bot would never react to any spells.

    This is also how the addon GladiatorLOS works by interrogating the server, when a opponent mages casts poly on me I instantly get "poly" (lag dependant) in my ear, so they can't happen client side only.

    This is the crux of the argument, because it happens at the server the data is there to allow a bot program to reflect.

    If your going to comeback with, "we don't know for sure how the log behaves" then lets agree to disagree, however I've given FOUR very strong examples of why the log should behave as I suggest, and you've given because I think it's possibly another way but no good examples to back it up, we've reached an empass.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    Good, Glad you said that, they can't be client only, as no bot program would ever work in pvp.
    That's a total non-sequitur. Bots that work off the combat log observe the behavior of the client. Nothing else needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    When you cast a spell a human player reacts by reflecting/cloaking/amsing as they visually see that cast time/animation.

    A bot uses code, it's not sat in front of your monitor watching tidy plates! Therefore that information must hit the server the instant you begin to cast ANY spell otherwise the bot would never react to any spells.

    This is also how the addon GladiatorLOS works by interrogating the server, when a opponent mages casts poly on me I instantly get "poly" (lag dependant) in my ear, so they can't happen client side only.

    This is the crux of the argument, because it happens at the server the data is there to allow a bot program to reflect.
    How do you think the client for player Y gets to know that it has to draw a certain animation for player X? Player X sends the server some data (I cast a spell). The server processes that and notifies player Y. The client for player Y draws the required animation for player X and puts something into the combat log. No interrogation of the server takes place, the clients don't ask the server anything, they just listen to what the server tells them. (Yes, there are ways to ask the server for some data, but that's irrelevant to combat, during combat the clients *listen* and *tell*, they don't generally *ask*.)

    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    If your going to comeback with, "we don't know for sure how the log behaves" then lets agree to disagree, however I've given FOUR very strong examples of why the log should behave as I suggest, and you've given because I think it's possibly another way but no good examples to back it up, we've reached an empass.
    See above. You are looking at client-side things and are taking them too literally. No offense, but that's like spending your whole life in a building with no windows and suggesting that it's no different outside, the sun, the cars, the cities, etc, don't exist.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That's a total non-sequitur. Bots that work off the combat log observe the behavior of the client. Nothing else needed.



    How do you think the client for player Y gets to know that it has to draw a certain animation for player X? Player X sends the server some data (I cast a spell). The server processes that and notifies player Y. The client for player Y draws the required animation for player X and puts something into the combat log. No interrogation of the server takes place, the clients don't ask the server anything, they just listen to what the server tells them. (Yes, there are ways to ask the server for some data, but that's irrelevant to combat, during combat the clients *listen* and *tell*, they don't generally *ask*.)



    See above. You are looking at client-side things and are taking them too literally. No offense, but that's like spending your whole life in a building with no windows and suggesting that it's no different outside, the sun, the cars, the cities, etc, don't exist.
    All of this is based on your hypothesis that instant cast spells and regular spells are treated differently by the server where there is no evidence supporting this.

    No offence but it's like you think that cars run on peanut butter and everyone who tells you they don't and gives you compelling evidence are wrong.

  8. #148
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    [QUOTE=rda;27111449]That's a total non-sequitur. Bots that work off the combat log observe the behavior of the client. Nothing else needed.

    And those are the bots that are free to download, the ones you pay for are much more sophisticated and as you stated below there are ways of asking the server for data, remember we're talking about cheating software it's the bot that's doing it not the client.

    How do you think the client for player Y gets to know that it has to draw a certain animation for player X? Player X sends the server some data (I cast a spell). The server processes that and notifies player Y. The client for player Y draws the required animation for player X and puts something into the combat log. No interrogation of the server takes place, the clients don't ask the server anything, they just listen to what the server tells them. (Yes, there are ways to ask the server for some data, but that's irrelevant to combat, during combat the clients *listen* and *tell*, they don't generally *ask*.)

    We're not talking generally, were talking third party illegal software, the spell from x has to register on the server for it to calculate its effect y if a bot can get hold of that data before the server tells the client of y the effect it can react, no?

    See above. You are looking at client-side things and are taking them too literally. No offense, but that's like spending your whole life in a building with no windows and suggesting that it's no different outside, the sun, the cars, the cities, etc, don't exist.

    I know the calculations happen on the server so yes once the server has made those the client listens for the data and then produces the effect, this would mean that yes under normal client behaviour it would be impossible to react to instant cast, what I'm saying is the bot has the time to slip the reflect command into the calculation due to the way it is designed by interrogating the server, hence why some bots are expensive and some are free./QUOTE

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ok guys there seems like only one way to put this to bed. I have three wow accounts, one with a warrior, I'm going to risk a ban on one account by downloading a bot program and making a video of how to set it up to reflect certain spells.

    I don't really play the account much as it only has two chars so willing to take the risk, if anything it will inform people of how too recognise cheating behaviour from other players and open people's eyes, which should result in more people being banned or better tempted from cheating.

    It's such an emotive subject, I feel very strongly about since I take pvp seriously and have fought long and hard to get to the level I am at without some dickhead 1500 player taking rating off me without having to push a bind!!

    Got next week off work so I'll start then!

  9. #149
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    So many clueless people in this thread.
    Of course it is possible to reflect instant spells using a bot, I've done it with Honorbuddy myself (you can find a cracked version easily) just to know what the fuss was about. you can reflect or ground any important spell. More and more people are using this in arena nowadays.

    You can also instant interrupt and by that I mean your opponent has 0% chance to fake you, not 0.1%, but 0%. Even if he doesn't see own his bar because of how fast he stops his cast, he will still get locked out.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    And those are the bots that are free to download, the ones you pay for are much more sophisticated and as you stated below there are ways of asking the server for data, remember we're talking about cheating software it's the bot that's doing it not the client.
    The data that you can ask the server for won't help you bot that way. Go ahead and look what's in the API.

    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    We're not talking generally, were talking third party illegal software, the spell from x has to register on the server for it to calculate its effect y if a bot can get hold of that data before the server tells the client of y the effect it can react, no?
    No. The in-game communications are between each individual client and the server. The clients don't talk between themselves (torrent-like downloads of game data in bnet client excluded).

    It is possible to build software that would run on client X and try to eavesdrop on communications between client Y and the server, but that's only feasible if you control some kind of a middleman (eg, you are playing against a guy who is in the same city as you, you share the same provider, and you control the gateway you two share - if you work for that provider, for example), and even then it's still super-difficult. Due to encryption (did I mention that all sent and received packets are encrypted and different clients use different keys, and, no, you can't obtain the key of a client different than yours easily by eavesdropping on their exchange with the server?), due to the necessity of the communication between different parts of the bot (yep, you are going to have part of the bot running on the gateway, and another part running on the machine you are playing on) happening super-fast for this even to make sense, etc.

    Nobody does that.

    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    I know the calculations happen on the server so yes once the server has made those the client listens for the data and then produces the effect, this would mean that yes under normal client behaviour it would be impossible to react to instant cast, what I'm saying is the bot has the time to slip the reflect command into the calculation due to the way it is designed by interrogating the server, hence why some bots are expensive and some are free.
    Bots don't interrogate the server. They try to make something out of the information that the server freely provides through the client. /shrug

    Finally, once again, I am not saying that HoJ can't be reflected with a bot. I don't have the data for this. But if it can, it's likely because of a flaw in the server-side logic, something like a special case in the code misbehaving with unforeseen consequences, not due to the whole design of instant spells being this faulty. Why is that important? Because the scope of the flaw, even if it is exists - and I haven't seen evidence that it exists yet, all I heard is that there are bots that supposedly reflect HoJs, and maybe there are such bots, but maybe that's just big or uninformed words - the scope is likely small, limited to HoJ and maybe a couple of other spells. That's all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    All of this is based on your hypothesis that instant cast spells and regular spells are treated differently by the server where there is no evidence supporting this.
    Yes, that's a hypothesis in that I haven't seen the actual code that Blizzard use. That said, it just makes sense to do this as I describe. Precisely to avoid exploits. It's... I don't know, it's trivial, anyone who has written code with an insecure communication channel / clients that can potentially be tampered with, will instantly identify the possibility of the exploit that Blizzard's code supposedly have (according to you) and structure the code differently. It's not hard. /shrug

    ----

    I will add one more thing.

    If HB / LR and their offspring, can, indeed, reflect an arbitrary instant cast spell (you specify a spell ID in the config, bam, reflecting that), then, yes, the flaw is in the design of all such spells, and Blizzard devs are nuts (or sloppy). That's a big *if*, I think, but then again, who knows...

    Also, in this case, for the bot to work reliably, you are going to have a better average latency than the guy whose spells you are reflecting (a little DDOS might help those thirsty for wins).

    ----

    And one last thing: I don't know, guys, I don't see even talks of bots reflecting instant casts from bot users / devs. All they are advertising / discussing are reflects of spells with cast time. The only ones talking about reflects of instant casts are players who supposedly had a bot do that to them. Maybe I am not trying hard enough, but if you could share some links, that would be helpful. Say, where the devs even advertise that their bot can do that.
    Last edited by rda; 2014-05-17 at 11:54 AM.

  11. #151
    A guy actually has to go and make a video to prove there are functional bots out there?

    Holy christ are there not one qualified coder out there that could write something that would recognize these bots? They are eavesdropping so why can't you do the same to immediately tell if someone is cheating? You can even base the addon on the bots out there to easily determine patterns and so on. It would be the best addon ever. Having your target repeat the same action within the same time is simply impossible. How hard can it be to create a addon that would recognize a rotation bot?

    Make it insta report cheaters. Sending out that information to a name and shame website would also help. Trying to impress people with your 2.2k rating while having your character reported over 2000 times would be... quite funny to see actually.

  12. #152
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    and I haven't seen evidence that it exists yet, all I heard is that there are bots that supposedly reflect HoJs, and maybe there are such bots, but maybe that's just big or uninformed words - the scope is likely small, limited to HoJ and maybe a couple of other spells. That's all.

    Maybe you should take your head out of your ...

    -snip-

    It's fucking everywhere, and it works about everytime, I have no idea how it actually works but it grounds spells that HAVE ALREADY BEEN SENT, because it uses it at the same milisecond or close to. I'd guess there is a small error margin (a small delay) for grounding and reflect spells, allowing the bots to ground before it's actually sent.



    If HB / LR and their offspring, can, indeed, reflect an arbitrary instant cast spell (you specify a spell ID in the config, bam, reflecting that), then, yes, the flaw is in the design of all such spells, and Blizzard devs are nuts (or sloppy). That's a big *if*, I think, but then again, who knows...
    Just fucking try it before you come to stupid baseless conclusions ?

    Infracted
    Last edited by Nicola; 2014-05-18 at 01:22 PM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Gael4 View Post
    Maybe you should take your head out of your ...

    -snip-

    It's fucking everywhere, and it works about everytime, I have no idea how it actually works but it grounds spells that HAVE ALREADY BEEN SENT, because it uses it at the same milisecond or close to. I'd guess there is a small error margin (a small delay) for grounding and reflect spells, allowing the bots to ground before it's actually sent.
    Nobody is jumping to conclusions.

    I understood you the first time. Your "I USED IT" (and it supposedly worked) is not specific enough. What instant cast spells did you reflect, why you think the bot reflected not because the spell came off CD and was available to your opponent / because you or the enemy were at a particular health level, and could you test if it works with an arbitrary spell?

    While I am waiting for the registration email on the link you provided, could you also copy / paste the advertisement for the bot, please?

    Add words "stupid" and "baseless" as you please.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2014-05-18 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #154
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    Geal4

    Hey this argument has progressed far beyond you flameing me or him on a subject that's way more deeper than you realise!!!!!!

    Rda understands code, just like I do, and we are trying to smash out a completely different subject, so bugger off if you are not going to contribute!!!

    Edit: got A little emotive there, been out on the beer so please elaborate, sorry the cat atm won't let me type!!!!!! Lol

    If your claiming it works, please make a video, blank out all names and post the log and that would be a great contribution plus would also end this arguement
    Last edited by villie; 2014-05-18 at 09:16 AM.

  15. #155
    8 pages now and still there is nobody that has posted any proof, proof or gtfo, and no, posting a video of CloS, Divine Shield or any other immunity spell or of Spell Reflect botting spells with casting time does not count.

  16. #156
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    Celestalon explained why this was possible:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    I don't want to get too deep into the under-the-hood workings of WoW servers, but here's a super short version. Any action that one unit takes on another different unit used to be processed in batches every 400ms. Some very attentive people may have noticed that healing yourself would give you the health instantly (minus client/server latency), whereas healing another unit would incur a delay of between 0ms and 400ms (again, on top of client/server latency). Same with damaging, applying auras, interrupting, knocking back, etc.

    That delay can feel bad just due to the somewhat laggy responsiveness feeling, but also because the state of things can change during that time. For example: Holly the Holy Priest is healing Punky the Brewmaster. Punky spikes low, and Holly hits Guardian Spirit in a panic. The server verifies that Holly is able to cast it, and that Punky is alive (great!). The cast goes off, Guardian Spirit goes on cooldown, and a request is placed for the Guardian Spirit aura (that prevents dying) to be placed on Punky. That request will be filled next time the 400ms timer loops, which happens to be 320ms from now. 250ms later, the boss lands another hit on on Punky. Punky dies. Sadface. Another 70ms goes by, and the Guardian Spirit aura request pops up, and goes "Hey guys, I'm here!... Aww... damn, I missed the party. Sadface."

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Celestalon explained why this was possible:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    I don't want to get too deep into the under-the-hood workings of WoW servers, but here's a super short version. Any action that one unit takes on another different unit used to be processed in batches every 400ms. Some very attentive people may have noticed that healing yourself would give you the health instantly (minus client/server latency), whereas healing another unit would incur a delay of between 0ms and 400ms (again, on top of client/server latency). Same with damaging, applying auras, interrupting, knocking back, etc.

    That delay can feel bad just due to the somewhat laggy responsiveness feeling, but also because the state of things can change during that time. For example: Holly the Holy Priest is healing Punky the Brewmaster. Punky spikes low, and Holly hits Guardian Spirit in a panic. The server verifies that Holly is able to cast it, and that Punky is alive (great!). The cast goes off, Guardian Spirit goes on cooldown, and a request is placed for the Guardian Spirit aura (that prevents dying) to be placed on Punky. That request will be filled next time the 400ms timer loops, which happens to be 320ms from now. 250ms later, the boss lands another hit on on Punky. Punky dies. Sadface. Another 70ms goes by, and the Guardian Spirit aura request pops up, and goes "Hey guys, I'm here!... Aww... damn, I missed the party. Sadface."
    Not trying to go too deep into this, but basically WoW has a tickrate of 400 ms on player actions, correct? If so, and bear in mind I have no knowledge of this so I'm just telling my opinion as how I see it, that's really slow and ruins the gameplay.

  18. #158
    I'd like to chip in and say that there are two types of instant cast spells.
    Missiles (like say pyroblast for example) and non-missiles (like say combustion).

    Missile spells have a noticable travel time. This means that the inforamtion "instant missile spell cast" comes out long before before "instant missile spell hits". The game even has to factor in the distance between the caster and the target in its calculation.

    It is obvious to see that there could easily be addons that would reflect instant cast missile spells with 100% accuracy simply because their reaction time would be faster than the travel time.

    (The fire mage PvE opener is an extremely good example of this in action because even though fire mages trigger their PoM pyro before their combustion the combustion will hit first unless you lag or the target is very close to you.)

    Now the question is:
    Are non-missile spells coded completely different than missile spells or did blizzard code them the same way and simply set the "travel time" to ignore distance and as low as possible ("one lowest time intervall" aka 400ms).

    To most players this would seem instant but to a computer this would still look like "spell gets cast" ... travel time ... "spell hits".

    In closing I personally think that missile spells and other spells work exactly the same. One just has their travel time set extremely low (so players don't notice it). I find it unreasonable to assume that they made two different interactions for missile and non-missile spells.

    TL;DR: Yes I do think there are addons out there that can do this. But 99.9% of the time luck or skill are probably why your "insert important spell" got reflected.
    Last edited by gend; 2014-06-19 at 01:18 PM.

  19. #159
    I assume there is something similar for druids shifting out of roots? While I'm sure some are total pros at shifing, it never ceases to amaze me when one shifts out of something so fast the graphic for the root doesn't show up.

  20. #160
    You did the right thing, both the BGs and Arenas are flooded with classes that can do instant interrupt, spellreflect etc. Tho, i don't think so it matters at all, Blizz are pretty aware of the issue yet cannot do anything with it probably, otherwise they would have banned thousands of people.

    You can actually get the cheat if you just google for it

    I always smile when my 4/5 MW'd Elemental Blast with 0.2 cast time gets interrupted
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

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