Need rule of thumb for dmg/surv balancing

[Micke]

Hi, got RoS not long ago and trying to figure out balancing my gearing.

Stats that adds to toughness and healing both work for your survivability so I usually clump them together when comparing gear, and I've been thinking about where the cut off point is between losing damage and gaining survivability. Obviously damage will always be the focus for a softcore player like myself, however at some point it can't just be logically worth it as you move up through the difficulties.

So what is a good rule of thumb? ex. an item that gives say 5% dps but make you lose x% surv (toughness/healing), how much would "x" have to be for you to ignore the item? (and vice versa ofc) This is obviously without taking into account any special procs/effects.

[Deldavala]

If you play Softcore its usually.

Do you die more than 2 times per rift? Is it a player issue? Either you need more Survability/healing or you need to drop a Torment

Do you die less than 2 times per rift? Get more Damage to kill faster.

[Unproven]

If you play Softcore its usually.

Do you die more than 2 times per rift? Is it a player issue? Either you need more Survability/healing or you need to drop a Torment

Do you die less than 2 times per rift? Get more Damage to kill faster.

^ sums it up pretty good. get as low toughness as you can without wasting too much time on dieing.
while if you are on hardcore i dont feel comfortable on torment levels above t3 with anything less than 15kk toughness.

[Fencers]

You only need enough survivability that you can live long enough to kill everything on screen.

Go to the highest difficulty you can, fight some mobs and see how close you get to death before wiping out an elite pack. If you are uncomfortable with how close to death you are or if you actually die in that difficulty- lower the difficulty and pump up your damage more.

If you die or come close to dying to white mobs at any point- lower the difficulty and pump up your damage more.

Diablo 3 is an exceedingly simplistic game. It's mechanics are heavily in favor of damage output over anything else. If you have enough damage output your relative survivability should be only enough to kill them before they can kill you. That's is literally the ultimate expression of gameplay within Diablo 3- it's goal you are aiming for when playing.

[Dracodraco]

As a wizard, I found -
T1: 500K dmg, 2M toughness.
T2: 1M dmg, 4M toughness.
T3: 1.5M dmg, 6M toughness.
T4: 2M dmg, 8M toughness.
Breaking into T5 with the same ease as I do T4 would require unity or Wand of Woh, and doing T6 would require both <.<.

[Wass]

As a wizard, I found -
T1: 500K dmg, 2M toughness.
T2: 1M dmg, 4M toughness.
T3: 1.5M dmg, 6M toughness.
T4: 2M dmg, 8M toughness.
Breaking into T5 with the same ease as I do T4 would require unity or Wand of Woh, and doing T6 would require both <.<.

Softcore?

My build on HC runs 1m dmg selfbuffed and 10,5M toughness right now. I can solo T2, but I have to tryhard a bit often to not get into danger. T1 is slackmode farm however.

[Dracodraco]

Softcore?

My build on HC runs 1m dmg selfbuffed and 10,5M toughness right now. I can solo T2, but I have to tryhard a bit often to not get into danger. T1 is slackmode farm however.

Yea, softcore. Although at 10.5M toughness, I can't see how you'd have to tryhard in T2. I'm literally immortal in T3, only in T4 do I occasionally get into danger (wallers keeping me pinned in between an actual wall then dropping frozen or something on top of me). I have no survival skills apart from black hole's minor knockback, though. Maybe you don't kill stuff quickly enough ?

[Wass]

Yea, softcore. Although at 10.5M toughness, I can't see how you'd have to tryhard in T2. I'm literally immortal in T3, only in T4 do I occasionally get into danger (wallers keeping me pinned in between an actual wall then dropping frozen or something on top of me). I have no survival skills apart from black hole's minor knockback, though. Maybe you don't kill stuff quickly enough ?

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/W.../hero/22950820

If you have any ideas I'd be happy to hear them. Maybe I'm overreacting at the potential dangers of T2...

[Orange Joe]

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/W.../hero/22950820

If you have any ideas I'd be happy to hear them. Maybe I'm overreacting at the potential dangers of T2...

Too much vit and not enough damage reduction. If I remember right vit is skewed for toughness (values it more than it should)

[Wass]

Too much vit and not enough damage reduction. If I remember right vit is skewed for toughness (values it more than it should)

Since toughness is a measurement of how much damage you can sustain from full health to death (ergo 10M toughness = 10M dmg taken before dead), yes, vit does indeed skew it a lot more than it should.

I'm sitting at a tiny bit more than 500k hp atm with resistances being between 80-85% with my own buff. I did not want to reroll the vita on my TF since it's a perfect roll, so I decided to upgrade the base damage. I've been getting rid of vita anywhere I can, yet I feel that more needs to be done. But I don't know how.

It should also be noted that I'm really unlucky with ring and amu drops.

[Dracodraco]

Your best bet would be a proper trifecter ring to get rid of a little vitality for a bunch of dps. I assume your blackthornes are rolled for sockets already etc.
But yea, generally, vitality is only usefull to the extent that you are able to replenish it. Else it's just one hit extra you survive.

[Micke]

So if an item that gives me 2% more sheet dps, but decreases my healing/toughness by 20%, I should equip it?

[Dracodraco]

So if an item that gives me 2% more sheet dps, but decreases my healing/toughness by 20%, I should equip it?

As explained, it depends on your goals. If the 20% loss in toughness means you have to drop down a difficulty, probably not. 2 vs 20% is also an extreme amount, and I wouldn't do it (I'd focus on improving worse items first).

[Micke]

As explained, it depends on your goals. If the 20% loss in toughness means you have to drop down a difficulty, probably not. 2 vs 20% is also an extreme amount, and I wouldn't do it (I'd focus on improving worse items first).

Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know, I've been reading a lot about how dps is all that matters, but if put against extreme examples like 2 vs 20% (a 10 times diff) is it still worth it? and if as you say you would not equip it, at what toughness/healing number would you? 15%? 10%?

[Radio]

Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know, I've been reading a lot about how dps is all that matters, but if put against extreme examples like 2 vs 20% (a 10 times diff) is it still worth it? and if as you say you would not equip it, at what toughness/healing number would you? 15%? 10%?

In the case where you're weighing up 2% vs 20%, you're probably just shifting up your primary stat/crit rating/etc slightly, so it's probably not worth the toughness drop. In the case where you're gaining a ton of elemental or skill damage in exchange for toughness, you have much more reason to consider the swap.

Sometimes a I take a huge toughness drop for a huge damage gain and make it up later through improving another slot. For example, I recently picked up an Eye of the Storm helm for my monk with 30% lightning skills and such, but I lost 1mill toughness in the process, so now I'm going to work on either Asheara's or Blackthorne's 2/3p (I have ring of royal grandeur) or work on getting more of my OWE resistance to bring my toughness back up.

[Sleepysnik]

Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know, I've been reading a lot about how dps is all that matters, but if put against extreme examples like 2 vs 20% (a 10 times diff) is it still worth it? and if as you say you would not equip it, at what toughness/healing number would you? 15%? 10%?

You will kinda have to equip the item and check out the actual loss/gains too. Remember these are percentages so lets say (extreme example) that you sit at 1m dps and 2k healing, then faced with an upgrade option that is +10% dps and -20% healing. Well, that means 100k extra dps at the cost of 400hps, not such a huge sacrifice after all?