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  1. #1

    TBC Attunements : For those who don't know what they were.

    I keep seeing disucssions, arguments, threads, and really wrong statements about these. I figured, since most forum goers probably didn't do them in the first place, perhaps they should see what they actually were. I've given links to a few things people might not know off the top of their head and or long lines such as Black Temples which IS heavy on quests. There are a few notes and two interesting points of reference listed.

    Also, for quick reference
    Karazhan Attunement : Removed with 2.4.0 (25th-Mar-2008)
    Serpentshrine Caverns Attunement : Removed with 2.1.2 Hotfix (19th-Jun-2007)*
    The Eye Attunement : Removed with 2.1.2 Hotfix (19th-Jun-2007)*
    Mt. Hyjal Attunement : Removed with 2.4.0 (25th-Mar-2008)
    Black Temple Attunement : Removed with 2.4.0 (25th-Mar-2008)

    * "After a lot of thought and deliberation, we’ve decided to remove the attunement requirements to enter Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep: The Eye. While many of our attunements in the Burning Crusade have been good progression checks, a few of the attunements have turned out to cause unnecessary stress on guilds either doing the content or attempting to do the content. With Black Temple and Battle for Mount Hyjal thriving, we want to encourage (rather than prevent) new guilds and raid groups to attempt Serpentshrine and TK. We are going to leave the current attunement quests in the game so that players can still engage in the challenge and the lore of those quests should they choose to. At a later point, we are considering adding a final reward step to those quests as well (that way those who have already completed them would not miss out on a *new* reward)."

    Tier 4
    Karazhan
    -Get to Karazhan
    -Do 2 quests in front of Karazhan given by the Npc there
    -Npc gives a 3rd quest which sends you to Dalaran
    -At Dalaran you are given the quest for the First Key Fragment (Shadow Labyrinth)
    /This required access which came from Sethekk Halls unless someone else had the key
    -After obtaining the First Key Fragment, return to Dalaran
    -Accept quest for the Second Key Fragment (Steamvault)
    -Go to Area52 for quest Warp-Raider Nesaad


    Warp-Raider Nesaad is a 9 step quest line which is skippable if someone had a key to Arcatraz already!

    Gruul's Lair
    -No Attunement
    -Ogres in the area are hostile however unless you completed quest lines in Blade's Edge Mountains

    Magtheridon's Lair
    -No Attunement

    Tier 5
    Serpent Shrine Cavern
    -Enter Slave Pens Heroic (required Key which required Revered prior to 2.3)
    -Accept quest given by Skar'this the Heretic
    /Quest requires player to kill both Gruul the Dragonkiller & Nightbane (karazhan)
    -Return to Skar'this and complete quest

    Tempest Keep
    Pre-req : Required Flying or Warlock summon to enter the raid.
    This was the first "long questline" Surmised still best off of WoW Wiki here
    Important thing of note for this particular line. The Tempest Key could be started at 68. This allowed for leveling progression throughout the quest line.

    Mount Hyjal
    -Travel to Caverns of Time
    -Retrieve quest The Vials of Eternity from Soridormi
    /Quest requires two kills for two drops ; Lady Vashj (SSC) and Kael'thas Sunstrider (TK)
    -Return to Soridormi and turn in the quest
    *note: Battle for Mt. Hyjal required Attunment for All Raid Party

    Tier 6
    Black Temple
    BT had the longest quest line located here
    Another interesting lore based quest line which too could be started at 68 for the first half, netting xp and rewards.

    Tier 6.5
    Sunwell
    No attunement

    Extra
    Zul'aman
    No attunement
    Last edited by hakujinbakasama; 2014-05-07 at 03:27 PM.

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Rereading that made my head ache. Not because it wasn't laid out well. The layout was impeccable. It just brought back memories of having to slog through all that crap whenever we got poached by a Kael/Vashj guild and tried to get people reattuned for TK/SSC.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Rereading that made my head ache. Not because it wasn't laid out well. The layout was impeccable. It just brought back memories of having to slog through all that crap whenever we got poached by a Kael/Vashj guild and tried to get people reattuned for TK/SSC.
    I know people went through that. There really isn't a valid argument to try to dismiss it. The only caveat I have about the subject is to try and point out that Guilds were WAY more server dependent at those times. The technology for Cross Realms nor even things like LFD existed yet for them.

  4. #4
    So, people would do some world quests and dungeons for their Kara attunement, proving that they knew how to play the game and would get some gear to help in the raid. Then they would do Kara, and get attuned for other dungeons, getting gear and helping to prepare for the next raid. Then they would do SSC/TK, getting gear and attunements for the next level of raid.

    Boy what an awful system that sounds like. Not.
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  5. #5
    You forgot few bits and bops

    Karazhan:
    - third key fragment in Arcatraz required you to have key to Arcatraz (obtained from quest chain that involved clearing both Mechanar and Botanica first)
    - getting into Mechanar, Botanica or Arcatraz required flying mount which was quite expensive at the start of TBC (1200 gold for the slow version)

    Serpentshrine Cavern:
    - quest chain for the Blackened Urn to summon Nightbane
    - Gruul was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed several times

    Tempest Keep:
    Yeah, you linked the quest chain, but need to spell it out here what was wrong with it...
    - To get into heroic Steamvault, Arcatraz, Shadow Labyrinth and Shattered Halls required grinding four factions to revered for the heroic keys, one of which required flying mount (see Karazhan attunement problem above).
    - Clearing Arcatraz, and Shadow Labyrith was extremely hard, but big problem was the timed quest in Shattered Halls. Depending on group composition it could take two tries or twenty tries. Basically endboss could one-shot clothies with the random ability and if it one-shot healer, it would be lost and you cant try the heroic again until next day.
    - Magtheridon was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed 3-4 times before anybody outside top50 list killed it.

    Mount Hyjal:
    - Vashj and Kael were ridiculously overtuned, much harder than 2/3 of the whole next tier of MH/BT

    Black Temple:
    - Required killing bosses in five separate 25man instance runs was the thing that all guilds hated and never wants to see TBC style raid attunements anymore
    Last edited by fixx; 2014-05-07 at 04:05 PM.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Remember also that you needed revered with the various factions just to unlock the heroics, and it took around 12 days played to get to level 70 from a standing start.

    You could bypass the key chain for arca if you had a rogue with max lockpicking and druids could fly at 68, enabling earlier access. Not that it would have helped, arca would rape max level groups with half decent gear well into the expac unless they played with care and @68 any class bar maybe hunters would have been useless. To be halfway viable raidwise you'd also probably need to farm exalted with the aldor/scryers as well.

    The bad thing about all this is it was a huge cockblock to the content, the good thing it meant almost everyone had something useful to be going on with for months at a time.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    You forgot few bits and bops

    Karazhan:
    - third key fragment in Arcatraz required you to have key to Arcatraz (obtained from quest chain that involved clearing both Mechanar and Botanica first)
    - getting into Mechanar, Botanica or Arcatraz required flying mount which was incredibly expensive at the start of TBC (5000 gold for the skill)

    Serpentshrine Cavern:
    - quest chain for the Blackened Urn to summon Nightbane
    - Gruul was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed several times

    Tempest Keep:
    Yeah, you linked the quest chain, but need to spell it out here what was wrong with it...
    - To get into heroic Steamvault, Arcatraz, Shadow Labyrinth and Shattered Halls required grinding four factions to revered for the heroic keys, one of which required flying mount (see Karazhan attunement problem above).
    - Clearing Arcatraz, and Shadow Labyrith was extremely hard, but big problem was the timed quest in Shattered Halls. Depending on group composition it could take two tries or twenty tries. Basically endboss could one-shot clothies with the random ability and if it one-shot healer, it would be lost and you cant try the heroic again until next day.
    - Magtheridon was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed 3-4 times before anybody outside top50 list killed it.

    Mount Hyjal:
    - Vashj and Kael were ridiculously overtuned, much harder than 2/3 of the whole next tier of MH/BT

    Black Temple:
    - Required killing bosses in five separate 25man instance runs was the thing that all guilds hated and never wants to see TBC style raid attunements anymore
    You didn't need epic flying to get into arcatraz.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    - getting into Mechanar, Botanica or Arcatraz required flying mount which was incredibly expensive at the start of TBC (5000 gold for the skill)
    That was for Epic flying, there was still the lower level that costed a less than 1,000g that the majority of the players had.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    I would love to see attunements again for the lore and story, but I think they should remove some of the raid requirements or make them something easily completed via the LFR system (which in itself would have made attunements a none issue back in TBC, had LFR existed back then).
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  10. #10
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Rereading that made my head ache. ....
    ...so I supply the picture version



    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    It just brought back memories of having to slog through all that crap whenever we got poached by a Kael/Vashj guild and tried to get people reattuned for TK/SSC.
    Not so much getting poached here, but people being drama queens and quitting when we were learning Illidan. The fun to go back and attune new people. Not.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  11. #11
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Det, that chart doesn't help, man. Total 'Nam flashbacks.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    You forgot few bits and bops

    Karazhan:
    - third key fragment in Arcatraz required you to have key to Arcatraz (obtained from quest chain that involved clearing both Mechanar and Botanica first)
    - getting into Mechanar, Botanica or Arcatraz required flying mount which was quite expensive at the start of TBC (1200 gold for the slow version)

    Serpentshrine Cavern:
    - quest chain for the Blackened Urn to summon Nightbane
    - Gruul was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed several times

    Tempest Keep:
    Yeah, you linked the quest chain, but need to spell it out here what was wrong with it...
    - To get into heroic Steamvault, Arcatraz, Shadow Labyrinth and Shattered Halls required grinding four factions to revered for the heroic keys, one of which required flying mount (see Karazhan attunement problem above).
    - Clearing Arcatraz, and Shadow Labyrith was extremely hard, but big problem was the timed quest in Shattered Halls. Depending on group composition it could take two tries or twenty tries. Basically endboss could one-shot clothies with the random ability and if it one-shot healer, it would be lost and you cant try the heroic again until next day.
    - Magtheridon was ridiculously overtuned boss originally (tuned to be challenging for guild that cleared Naxxramas) and nerfed 3-4 times before anybody outside top50 list killed it.

    Mount Hyjal:
    - Vashj and Kael were ridiculously overtuned, much harder than 2/3 of the whole next tier of MH/BT

    Black Temple:
    - Required killing bosses in five separate 25man instance runs was the thing that all guilds hated and never wants to see TBC style raid attunements anymore
    You are completely correct, my apologizes.
    I did point out that a few of those steps are able to be short cut a little. You didn't need flying with a warlock but that would mean that warlocks needed flying. Base flying wasn't extremely difficult but did require some work.

    That all being said, as I've commented many times, the roughest part of the attunements was the heroic grinds. That being said, it also prevented quick burnout of content as it prolonged said content. However, it was also difficult due to everything being based on your server population. Systems in the last few years have ideally remedied such issues.

    On top of all of that though, there is an interesting social dilemma many people never discuss. I tanked in TBC and loved 5 mans more than raiding and wasn't alone. There were dedicated healers and Tanks out there who only ran that content which allowed people to farm/grind though the whole expansion. It did get better when they dropped the key requirements to honored as that generally only required a few normal runs.

    But in the end, many of the concerns and issues you raised has nothing to do with attunements and more on bad boss design. It's not like over tuned bosses have never existed since. It's a topic in which Blizzard would have to be way more on top of things. Secondly, Class designs were a bit more rough at the time and group dynamic was a HUGE issue. Did you ever try Dark Portal Heroic with a Shaman Healer? Jesus what a rough place for them. What about Shattered Halls with a Paladin vs other Tanks? Radical differences were felt everywhere depending on who you had. This enters the whole debate of discussion on TBC heroics (as well as raids) which were done at times when CC was mandatory and Crit Defense Cap was a HUGE issue.

    Main point, Attunements were investments and aren't as overbearing as people try to generalize them. Look at the last several Legendary quests (arguably vastly worse yet overly accepted.) I'd say that's partially due to evolved game systems which is a factor that should equally be evaluated on this topic.

  13. #13
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post

    Main point, Attunements were investments and aren't as overbearing as people try to generalize them. Look at the last several Legendary quests (arguably vastly worse yet overly accepted.) I'd say that's partially due to evolved game systems which is a factor that should equally be evaluated on this topic.
    Attunements wouldn't have been such a cockblock if they were accountwide or guildwide.

    Some parts were also plain stupid: Free that guy in the cage in a SSC raid and get a quest to clear a 5 man again, but must be on heroic. C'mon man, I proved I haZ da skill..I did that freaking 5 man to get the key for this place a bunch of times already. Cut me some slack!

    Also..if you didn't feel they were overbearing, I guess you were late? LV and KT initially only dropped 4 quest items per kill. That means at least 6 weeks of kills for both guys to attune the core raiders. I swear with people whining about the 6000 VP part of the legendary quest nowadays, that kind of artificial gating would go down reeeaaalllly well.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #14
    Moderator aiko-chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    I would love to see attunements again for the lore and story, but I think they should remove some of the raid requirements or make them something easily completed via the LFR system (which in itself would have made attunements a none issue back in TBC, had LFR existed back then).
    Bleh. I don't want to return to attunements. Maybe as a requirement for heroic raiding or something but they could easily have a one-time cinematic for lore purposes rather than a boring 'quest'.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Attunements wouldn't have been such a cockblock if they were accountwide or guildwide.

    Some parts were also plain stupid: Free that guy in the cage in a SSC raid and get a quest to clear a 5 man again, but must be on heroic. C'mon man, I proved I haZ da skill..I did that freaking 5 man to get the key for this place a bunch of times already. Cut me some slack!

    Also..if you didn't feel they were overbearing, I guess you were late? LV and KT initially only dropped 4 quest items per kill. That means at least 6 weeks of kills for both guys to attune the core raiders. I swear with people whining about the 6000 VP part of the legendary quest nowadays, that kind of artificial gating would go down reeeaaalllly well.
    But that's rarely the argument. The argument is that "Attunements bad!!!!" Which isn't really valid. TBC had a drastic increase in Raid numbers despite the attunements. The issue was a few application choices, not the idea. I, we, always hear how bad some aspect of attunemnts were, but as it was pointed out above, the lack of them leads to the biggest bitch fest of all these days "People who have NO CLUE how to player their fucking class!"

    Mikepreachwow did a good video pointing out how you can go from 1-90 and full LFR gear with being the worst player in the group at ALL TIMES. (tried to find the link on youtube but couldn't come up with a good search) Then all you get is "geared" players who ilvl your needs but practically bring nothing to the raid.

    The issue I take is that instead of "Improving" most good features, Blizzard wipes them, calls them fixes, and creates a whole new system which often creates more problems. Attunements were a good idea. Overall, they were even a good application. The process needed tweaks and brought a great deal of external bonuses to the game. Certain aspects and implementations were, however, very poor... those drop numbers being one of them.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    But that's rarely the argument. The argument is that "Attunements bad!!!!" Which isn't really valid. TBC had a drastic increase in Raid numbers despite the attunements. The issue was a few application choices, not the idea. I, we, always hear how bad some aspect of attunemnts were, but as it was pointed out above, the lack of them leads to the biggest bitch fest of all these days "People who have NO CLUE how to player their fucking class!"

    Mikepreachwow did a good video pointing out how you can go from 1-90 and full LFR gear with being the worst player in the group at ALL TIMES. (tried to find the link on youtube but couldn't come up with a good search) Then all you get is "geared" players who ilvl your needs but practically bring nothing to the raid.

    The issue I take is that instead of "Improving" most good features, Blizzard wipes them, calls them fixes, and creates a whole new system which often creates more problems. Attunements were a good idea. Overall, they were even a good application. The process needed tweaks and brought a great deal of external bonuses to the game. Certain aspects and implementations were, however, very poor... those drop numbers being one of them.
    And we'll see how they bandage the systems in Wow for WOD.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickbuttmario View Post
    And we'll see how they bandage the systems in Wow for WOD.
    I'm not holding my breath. I'm walking into everything with WoD like D3:RoS... will not be enough. The recent news of Garrisons being mandatory did not sit will with me. There has been a growing issue since Wrath (and to an extent tbc) of standing around waiting for ques. Garrisons are going to add to that in a way. Instead of seeing people in cities, you'll be in your garrison seeing no one.

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    I'm not holding my breath. I'm walking into everything with WoD like D3:RoS... will not be enough. The recent news of Garrisons being mandatory did not sit will with me. There has been a growing issue since Wrath (and to an extent tbc) of standing around waiting for ques. Garrisons are going to add to that in a way. Instead of seeing people in cities, you'll be in your garrison seeing no one.
    Garrisons aren't being made mandatory beyond getting one. Outside that, you can safely ignore them even as you level, as the quests to revisit it will apparently not be mandatory.

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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Garrisons aren't being made mandatory beyond getting one. Outside that, you can safely ignore them even as you level, as the quests to revisit it will apparently not be mandatory.
    That's yet to be seen in application. I'm a bit of a worry wort on this one. Seeing as professions, farming, and in theory "dailies" are going to be tied to them, I'm not sure how they are going to balance it. And as someone else pointed out before, the perks may become a social mandate given whatever effect they potentially give.

  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    That's yet to be seen in application. I'm a bit of a worry wort on this one. Seeing as professions, farming, and in theory "dailies" are going to be tied to them, I'm not sure how they are going to balance it. And as someone else pointed out before, the perks may become a social mandate given whatever effect they potentially give.
    Browsing the front page, it looks like they're considering disabling the perks in raids to avoid just that as an issue.

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