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  1. #1

    Does easier game provide more for casuals?

    First of all, lets agree all that casual is not a bad player. Is a player that cannot dedicate to a guild schedule or that he does not care to min - maxing. Of course this is very generalized but in order to avoid debate on what casuals are, lets just talk about people who don't play this game for the raid part (which are the majority with blizzard statistics).

    Also lets agree that if 1-2% of the content is super hard and the 98% is super easy, we cannot call the game "hard". Easier game means content is consumed too fast and developers need to release content even faster. Everything in the game is trivialy easy except the normal and heroic raid.

    For those that don't raid there is not any feeling of accomplishment. Back in Vanilla/TBC you felt accomplishment for reaching the max level. You felt accomplishment for completing a group quest, for completing a difficult dungeon. Even if you didn't raid, there were many things in the world to do that made you feel you accomplish something.

    Now, unless you are part of a guild that does normal/heroic raid you don't feel that you accomplish anything, you just take part in a lower gear tredmill via easy and boring dailies and easy/boring LFR. Unique class quests? no, that will cost a raid tier. more features? no, that would cost a raid tier...everything we ask is just not a priority because Blizzard needs to release the new raid in 3-4 months.

    Back in vanilla/tbc there were not any threads about "when the new raid will release?" or "wtf blizzard? 6 months without new raids?". All the game development focus now is just to feed the raiding community (and LFR also). Everything that done to the game the last years is to ensure that players will start raiding as fast as possible. But what type of players are only interested to raid as fast as possible? Is it the casuals?

    In conclusion, I don't think that Blizzard develop the game for the casuals but to ensure that the Raiders will raid as fast as possible and they will have a new raid every 3-4 months (except the period before expansion that they focus on new xpac). Casuals did not asked for trivial leveling or heirlooms. They never asked to remove the group quests and elite zones from the world and unique class quests in order to get more raids..
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  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    "Does an easier game provide more for casuals?"

    No, it does exactly the opposite.

    It also patronizes and insults players that the design studio (or at least its developers) doesn't clearly understand.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    "Does an easier game provide more for casuals?"

    No, it does exactly the opposite.

    It also patronizes and insults players that the design studio (or at least its developers) doesn't clearly understand.
    thats exactly my opinion too, I just used a wall of text
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  4. #4
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Wut?

    The only thing "hard" IMHO are "hard raidmodes" - and even those can be overcome with dedication and time if the skill is lacking
    The thing semi-challenging is probaly "normal raidmodes"

    The rest is and always has been pretty easy. No idea where to rank pvp, but even that is probably only hard if want an extremly high rating. To which people will soon reply "No, a FotM team can faceroll to 2400 ratings"
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  5. #5
    All an easier game does is cause content to be consumed faster.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Wut?

    The only thing "hard" IMHO are "hard raidmodes" - and even those can be overcome with dedication and time if the skill is lacking
    The thing semi-challenging is probaly "normal raidmodes"

    The rest is and always has been pretty easy. No idea where to rank pvp, but even that is probably only hard if want an extremly high rating. To which people will soon reply "No, a FotM team can faceroll to 2400 ratings"
    Well, I am not saying that content was hard as a normal/heroic raid, but at least it wasn't faceroll. There were a lot of areas with elite mobs/quests and solo or duo these quests were challenging and you felt satisfaction for completing it. You were using cc in your leveling. I am not say it was difficult, but it was interesting and actually you were learning your class in the process instead of just hitting 2 buttons until max level.

    You also had unique class quests. Quests to get your totems, to get you druid forms, your berserker stance, warlock pets...The game was much more RP, immersive and deep. Quests to get a nice item (warrior whirwind axe weapon, rogues back with +stealth). Now all these are just removed to just reach the raiding game faster and faster...and they don't add more, because they will need to release more raids..
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2014-05-07 at 01:15 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    The rest is and always has been pretty easy.
    it wasn't 'hard', but it did require (at least some) effort and therefore was more rewarding. nowadays only thing that requires effort is high-end raiding and pvp. the rest is monkey-friendly. now, monkey-friendly content is fine but not if it's 90% of the game.

  8. #8
    "casual" and "bad" aren't synonymous

    it's possible to have casual easy content (solo levelling)
    it's possible to have casual hard content (tough solo content)
    it's possible to have hardcore easy content (grind content)
    it's possible to have hardcore hard content (muh raidan)
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  9. #9
    You can't really call a game like WoW with such drastic difficulty ranges easy or hard. It's simply not that static. It has stuff for everyone, which is great.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    You can't really call a game like WoW with such drastic difficulty ranges easy or hard. It's simply not that static. It has stuff for everyone, which is great.
    Sorry, but the only difficulty there is in game is in normal/heroic raid and in arena/rating bgs at high rates. What percentage of game content is this? What is left for people that don't raid? only trivial content that you can blink out of it just to reach the raid part of the game. 98% of the game content for the 90% of the playerbase that uses it is super easy and even insulting. The rest 2% designed for the top 10% players are challenging to super hard.

    That 98% content used to be interesting, rewarding and sometimes "challenging".
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  11. #11
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Unsure if insult or not, though casual =/= bad.

    And, more providing for all would keep the game growing upwards, or more difficult with different sets within the game. Challenging content makes the game more interesting.

    And really we are seeing a divided setup after all.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    Sorry, but the only difficulty there is in game is in normal/heroic raid and in arena/rating bgs at high rates. What percentage of game content is this? What is left for people that don't raid? only trivial content that you can blink out of it just to reach the raid part of the game. 98% of the game content for the 90% of the playerbase that uses it is super easy and even insulting. The rest 2% designed for the top 10% players are challenging to super hard.

    That 98% content used to be interesting, rewarding and sometimes "challenging".
    And all of that is clearly your opinion and nothing more.

    For you and I who have played this game for awhile, it comes across this way, sure. For the new person, it does not. I have 2 new friend that play and they are always mentioning "cool new things" or "holy shit that was hard" and neither of them are higher than level 40 or 50 (I kinda ignore them cuz I'm phasing out of this game).

  13. #13
    What separates the 'casual gamer' from the 'hardcore gamer' is time invested; nothing more.
    Now; I'm a casual gamer, and I visit sites that grant information on the class, gearing, stat priorities, fight mechanics and all that... What makes me a casual gamer is that I hate grinding. With a passion. I don't want to play hours on end, day in day out, in order to grind the gear necessary for the end-game content. I honestly do not want to do that. To me, that is not 'gaming.'

    I do love social games, however. Games where you team up, games where you work together, and where your skill and teamwork decide the outcome of your encounter. I love MMORPGs for that reason specifically; the myriad of abilities you can use to synergize with your team mates; that's what makes it interesting.

    Now look at end-game content such as WoW has. The truth is that gear is king, queen, emperor and god. Without at least a certain level of gear, you don't even need to sign up for the content. Regardless of your skill as a gamer, by the way. So the difficulty is gated behind grind. And that's what makes it 'non-casual.' Try as you might, WoW is not 'catering to the casuals' at all. It's catering to those who play a LOT, and rewards endless repetition of meaningless content (dailies especially, for entry-level gear that allows you to reach content that is pretty much entry-level itself (heroics) that grant... Not enough gear to even get in LFR unless you do more dailies, or have a very expansive guild support that pools the efforts and kits you properly).

    People need to redefine what 'casual' mean, and bring it to back to its original meaning: 'Someone who, casually, plays.' Did the game get easier? Over time, yes. But that ease increased mainly because of gear, which is required to take on higher difficulties, and outscale previous levels of encounters by such an amount that they become pretty much meaningless in the process.

    Making the game 'easier' does nothing for casuals. Making entry gear more accessible, less time-consuming to come by, while at the same time ramping up tactical difficulty of encounters (rather than just tossing more stats at it) is far more interesting for casuals.

    Lots of people like to have two raid nights a week. And that includes people who regard themselves as 'casuals.' But those people are not interested in grinding mats for pots, food and gear in between. They're not interested in farming. And it's great for those who have a few farm-lovers in their guild, but smaller friend-based guilds often do not. They do not have the capacity to have the guild itself carry the raiders in terms of supplies.

  14. #14
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    You can't really call a game like WoW with such drastic difficulty ranges easy or hard. It's simply not that static. It has stuff for everyone, which is great.
    This. There's solo content that's easy (pet battles for casual enthusiasts, leveling, dailies, most world content, tackling older raids solo, Proving Grounds Bronze and maybe Silver), solo content that's not as easy (Brawler's Guild, Proving Grounds Gold/Endless and Silver for specs that don't scale poorly at low gear levels, pet battles for those who get really into the meta game, tackling not-as-old raids solo), group content that's easy (dungeons, scenarios, unrated battlegrounds, LFR, Flex) and group content that's not as easy (Normal+ raiding, some Heroic dungeons at-level and upcoming Heroics, Challenge Modes, Heroic Scenarios, Arena, rated Battlegrounds).

    The key is breadth of content, which WoW is doing pretty well at, and seems to be doing better at with WoD with the ability to encounter stuff that will require a group to get through while you're out exploring.

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  15. #15
    Depends on the player.

    But I think a smoother difficulty curve would provide more for the more casual players. You're much more likely to keep pushing yourself onwards if you don't suddenly hit a wall of difficulty you can't complete (either skillwise, gearwise or time commitment wise).

    That thing said, I think there needs to be more difficult content as well. Would be interesting if there could be Elite versions of every single Heroic/Mythic fight that step things up a bit, and the reward is a higher chance of Warforged loot being dropped. Thus its not manditory for most people, but the top guilds are encouraged to keep doing things the 'hard way' to get the best loot.

    Would be difficult to design, of course.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    "casual" and "bad" aren't synonymous

    it's possible to have casual easy content (solo levelling)
    it's possible to have casual hard content (tough solo content)
    it's possible to have hardcore easy content (grind content)
    it's possible to have hardcore hard content (muh raidan)

    casual and average player goes hand to hand though, not bad but not great either, just average.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    casual and average player goes hand to hand though, not bad but not great either, just average.
    They don't.

    Players get better when a game provides a steady curve of challenge. The only reason this "casuals are bad lol" idea is perpetuated is because there's not much solo content that provides that steady curve- Solo and small group content picks up a tiny amount as you learn the game's basic mechanics, then caps out, then there are a few niche items at the end of the curve which are spiked up way high. To get more advanced, you pretty much have to move into raiding.

    So yeah. Implement an actual skillcurve for solo content and casuals will git gud.
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  18. #18
    Something people tend to forget is how much influence a player's gear has on perceived difficulty. The reason most players can't find a middle ground from faceroll to super hard is usually because they see their progression content as challenging (since they have gear appropriate for that level of difficulty), which in turn trivializes all content before it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    "Does an easier game provide more for casuals?"

    No, it does exactly the opposite.

    It also patronizes and insults players that the design studio (or at least its developers) doesn't clearly understand.
    Exactly this!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    "casual" and "bad" aren't synonymous

    it's possible to have casual easy content (solo levelling)
    it's possible to have casual hard content (tough solo content)
    it's possible to have hardcore easy content (grind content)
    it's possible to have hardcore hard content (muh raidan)
    when is the last time you saw tough solo content in wow?
    yeah i thought so.

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