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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    The big bang and traveling at the speed of light

    OK so I was watching How the universe works last night and got wondering about something.


    How did cosmic inflation allow the universe to expand at speeds faster than the speed of light. My second question is if we know how the inflation works why couldn't we find something to reproduce that effect and travel faster than light?

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    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Because the actual physical matter and energy is not travelling faster than light. The space between then is expanding faster than light; if two photons leave the same point and travel at c in opposite directions, then the space between them is expanding at 2c.
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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Because the actual physical matter and energy is not travelling faster than light. The space between then is expanding faster than light; if two photons leave the same point and travel at c in opposite directions, then the space between them is expanding at 2c.

    So how are we able to see light from the beginning of the universe? (give or take a few million/billion years.)

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    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Most models of universal expansion I've seen assume that it is limited by the speed of light. However, the inflationary hypothesis proposes that the initial expansion was faster then the speed of light. This is to explain how the universe appears to be the same size in every direction. However, a better explanation in my opinion is that time flowed differently. Einsteins general theory of relativity stipulates that while the speed of light is a constant and a limiter on movement, the passage of time is relative to the observer. So within a macroscopic view of space/time at the initial expansion, time could flow faster, allowing mater to seem to travel further to outside observation.

    Or whatever... it's before lunch, don't make me think on an empty stomach.
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    We live within Space-Time, the universe expanding is Space-Time. The speed of light is only a constraint for objects within Space-Time, not for Space-Time itself. The speed of light therefore cannot limit space-time's expansion, it can only govern how much we see of it or how fast we can move through it.

    essentially, movement != inflation when it comes to "speed."
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    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    So how are we able to see light from the beginning of the universe?
    We can't, for a variety of factors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    So how are we able to see light from the beginning of the universe? (give or take a few million/billion years.)
    If memory serves we don't actually see the light from the beginning of the universe, only the echoing radiation remaining of it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    So how are we able to see light from the beginning of the universe?
    The first light we can see is from about 380,000 years after the Big Bang when photons could actually travel.

    The CMB is the light created some time around recombination. This light was then red shifted by the expansion of the universe until it became microwaves.

    It has nothing to do with inflation since that happened much earlier. It is however evidence that inflation did happen.
    Last edited by Ahhdurr; 2014-05-07 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    We can't, for a variety of factors.
    I think he means the cosmic microwave background

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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Most models of universal expansion I've seen assume that it is limited by the speed of light. However, the inflationary hypothesis proposes that the initial expansion was faster then the speed of light. This is to explain how the universe appears to be the same size in every direction. However, a better explanation in my opinion is that time flowed differently. Einsteins general theory of relativity stipulates that while the speed of light is a constant and a limiter on movement, the passage of time is relative to the observer. So within a macroscopic view of space/time at the initial expansion, time could flow faster, allowing mater to seem to travel further to outside observation.

    Or whatever... it's before lunch, don't make me think on an empty stomach.
    Problem with that theory is we currently have a satelite(can't remember the name of it it was mentioned in the show) that is pointed to the center of the universe. If what you say is true we would not be able to see light from when the universe was only a few billion years old. Yet we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    We live within Space-Time, the universe expanding is Space-Time. The speed of light is only a constraint for objects within Space-Time, not for Space-Time itself. The speed of light therefore cannot limit space-time's expansion, it can only govern how much we see of it.

    This make more sense to me.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by diddle View Post
    If memory serves we don't actually see the light from the beginning of the universe, only the echoing radiation remaining of it.
    The microwave radiation, it's a form of a light as well, not in the visible spectrum however. Microwave radioation has a longer wavelenght than visible light, and the visible light has turned into microwave radioation because as it has traveled space-time has stretched, and thus strething out the light traveling trough it.

    300 000 km/t is only the speed limit on anthing with mass or energy travelig trough space-time.
    Space-time itself can travel as fast as it want.
    Last edited by Komati; 2014-05-07 at 05:34 PM.
    “The north still reeks of undeath. Our homelands lay in ruin. Pandaria oozes our hatred and doubt. What hope is there for this world when the Burning Legion again lands upon our shores?” - Eric Thibeau

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    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Problem with that theory is we currently have a satelite(can't remember the name of it it was mentioned in the show) that is pointed to the center of the universe. If what you say is true we would not be able to see light from when the universe was only a few billion years old. Yet we can.
    The age of the universe is relative, as is all time. What's more, if I recall it is not light that said satellite detected and you are assuming we are too far from the "center" of expansion to see it.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Because the actual physical matter and energy is not travelling faster than light. The space between then is expanding faster than light; if two photons leave the same point and travel at c in opposite directions, then the space between them is expanding at 2c.

    btw This is not just me thinking something random. Cosmic inflation is a theory from 1980's

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)

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    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    btw This is not just me thinking something random. Cosmic inflation is a theory from 1980's

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)
    I'm more than aware, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    The age of the universe is relative, as is all time. What's more, if I recall it is not light that said satellite detected and you are assuming we are too far from the "center" of expansion to see it.

    I'm not assuming anything? ALso JmfC got it right, it is the cosmic microwave background that it is veiwing.



  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Problem with that theory is we currently have a satelite(can't remember the name of it it was mentioned in the show) that is pointed to the center of the universe. If what you say is true we would not be able to see light from when the universe was only a few billion years old. Yet we can.
    1. There is no 'center of the universe'. There is a center to the 'observable universe' though.
    2. That being said, space drags the light along with it as it expands, so given some math our observable universe is something like 100billion light years across which is much larger than the actual age of the universe would allow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Komati View Post
    300 000 km/s is the speed limit on anthing with mass
    anything without mass must travel 300 000 km/s
    Space-time itself can expand as fast as it want.
    Minor fixes.
    Last edited by Ahhdurr; 2014-05-07 at 05:51 PM.

  17. #17
    Because speed is a metric of time and space, and time is an emergent property from the fact that the third dimension is collapsing. The inflation was the result of the collapse of the fourth dimension into the third. Thus the universe "inflated" to it's starting size as the information organized into a "sensible" form, a black hole is merely a 2 dimensional region of space wherein the collapse of the third dimension has completed prematurely due to gravitational pressures. That is why it behaves like an ordinary gravitational phenomenon but only up until you reach the event horizon. (escape is nearly impossible at that point simply because the motion required to leave back into 3 dimensional space doesn't exist beyond that point).

    If the collapse continues further down beyond the second dimension then there should be the emergence of a 2nd dimension of time, and thus a 2 dimensional time-like phenomenon, which I call "Hyper-time".

    Theoretically if the collapse of the 4th dimension was able to begin the 3 dimensional form of the universe unevenly due to quantum fluctuations then there should already be 2 dimensional fluctuations occurring and there should be emergent "hyper-time" phenomena already. Obviously we aren't evolved to be able to perceive hyper-time, but perhaps quantum mechanics and things such as Hawking radiation (the apparent escape of particles from beyond the event horizon of a black hole) is the result of the emergence of hyper-time. So what seems probabilistic to us is actually deterministic, but it is determined by factors that exist some time after and hitherto(whatever you want to call the 3rd and 4th cardinal directions of time) the complete collapse of the third dimension is completed. (based on our relatively primitive 3ds-1dt perception of reality).

    So while we see the universe quickly splaying out into an unenergetic homogeneous disc of non-happening if we could observe hyper-time then perhaps things would look vastly different.

    That's my new theory at least.

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    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahhdurr View Post
    1. There is no 'center of the universe'. There is a center to the 'observable universe' though.
    2. That being said, space drags the light along with it as it expands, so given some math our observable universe is something like 100billion light years across which is much larger than the actual age of the universe would allow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Minor fixes.

    If the big bang theory is correct there has to be a center.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    If the big bang theory is correct there has to be a center.
    Unless Gheld's crackpot theory of spatial decomposition is correct. Then the "big bang" actually starts from the outside in, as all things of 3 dimensions become decoupled from the 4th dimension (which no longer exists) and spring in towards a central "end" time.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    If the big bang theory is correct there has to be a center.
    Again with the "I'm going to come to MMO-C and disprove decades of research" nonsense?

    No, there is no center of the universe.

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